Slack archive

general

Month: 2021-07

2021-07-01

Chen Po-Yun 02:01:15
@itemaa has joined the channel
anthonyhappens 07:36:50
@eokeok75311 has joined the channel
gugod 08:23:31
問一下關於空汙觀測網 https://v5.airmap.g0v.tw/ 的一個問題： 這 airmap.json https://api.airmap.g0v.tw/json/airmap.json 的內容，有沒有反映出觀測站的故障狀態？如果有的話該如何判斷 ？如果無法準確得知故障狀態的話，有沒有能找出「看來有點異常的觀測站」的慣例做法？
應該是沒有反應故障。五月初開始空氣盒子有大規模離線狀態，因為疫情，目前應該還沒修好。
也許問一下哈爸@wuulong
👍 2
First General Technology Inc. 13:39:46
@mkt01.fgttw has joined the channel
minexo79 19:22:32
剛剛想到個點子，我想弄個每天可以做到，而且低成本的「防疫加油」活動。
實行的方式就是每天與你的家人，還有遇到的人多說聲「防疫加油」，不知道這樣大家有沒有興趣來推廣？
弄個防疫/挺醫護的連儂牆也不錯
好點子！
防疫加油！
☝️🏼 未通過先實作
想到一個 2014 香港雨傘運動的例子
https://m.facebook.com/addoilteam
可以在網頁輸入文字
然後抗爭現場有人架投影機把字打在連儂牆上
恩恩
我們要不要開一個meet聊一下啊
建議可以先把想法寫成共筆～
我覺得不行誒 line早安長輩圖一堆更有趣
先開共筆＋1 防疫加油！
抱歉到現在才回訊息，這兩天我的胃在打仗，你們可以的話先幫忙開個共筆吧，感激不盡
共筆開好了 歡迎大家來跳坑!
剛剛整理成共筆了，有興趣的歡迎跳坑！
https://g0v.hackmd.io/Zz8GnN-SSouFqZQ7Z726RQ
我覺得還蠻多東西要補的XDD

2021-07-02

piano 14:42:52
@s864372002 has joined the channel
Milo Chen 15:23:23
請問一下，有沒有 人知道 關於 Slack 讀取 Google Drive 的這個權限是作什麼的呀? 看起來好像非常開放
Screen Shot 2021-07-02 at 3.21.47 PM.png
Screen Shot 2021-07-02 at 3.22.06 PM.png
這只是 Slack 在平台上跟 Google Drive 做整合而已。好比說你同意授權的話就可以在 Slack 上輕鬆地分享你在 Google Drive 裡頭的檔案。
非常開放沒錯！連Doc裡的全部內容也可以被Slack的Search:檢索出來，整合得很深度XD，我有實際經驗。
Ryan 16:06:36
@ryan.huangyulun has joined the channel
bess 18:44:25
【g0v 揪松團 #jothon 徵才中】

請大家告訴大家：在 g0v 社群負責籌辦雙月黑客松的工作小組──g0v 揪松團正在徵才中！

g0v 揪松團擅長結合實體與線上協作方法，以推廣開源協作模式為職志，與社群共同創造最有效率且有益於溝通的協作方式，因此，我們也希望未來想要成為揪松團夥伴的你，可以認同開放協作的概念，並有意願先花點時間理解開源運動與線上協作方法，所有 g0v 揪松團的工作內容都有基本流程文件可供參考，並隨時可視情況調整。

詳情參考：https://g0v.hackmd.io/@jothon/hiring2021

同場加映：【來揪松團工作，你或許可以學到的事情】
• 如何與台灣和全世界公民科技社群協作
• 世界第一手實體／線上辦松技能
• 開源協作、開放資料、開放政府
`#八月上工`
`#歡迎推薦`

HackMD

[徵才] g0v 揪松團 招募 活動執行 - HackMD

g0v 揪松團正在招募活動執行，快來加入我們！

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Wayne Wu 21:57:48
@wusyong9104 has joined the channel

2021-07-03

tery3693tery 00:00:30
@tery3693tery has joined the channel
莊貝潔 10:52:05
@jiiyee0712 has joined the channel
ky 11:38:59
Code for Japan Summit 2021 2021.9.18(sat.)-19(sun.) （線上）
開始報名了～今年是東北主催，主題是：Rebirth
https://summit2021.code4japan.org/

summit2021.code4japan.org

Code for Japan Summit 2021

東日本大震災から10年。自分に何ができるのか、テクノロジーで何かできるのか。必死に考え、手を動かしたあの時に日本のシビックテックは生まれました。

6 5 5 🇯🇵 4
bess 13:33:45
*不是學生也可以報名的【零時小學校「夏日源原理」2021 線上源力增能營】開放報名中！*

🌞 `零_時_小_學_校__線_上_營_隊__陪_你_過_暑_假_！` 🌞🌞

為了彌補六、七月實體營隊全部延期的遺憾，本次線上營隊整整為期四週！

`g0v貢獻者 ＋ g0v揪松團 ＝ 零時小學校線上源力增能營`

本次線上營隊是 g0v 貢獻者與 g0v 揪松團協作推出的線上課程計畫，以「開源、協作、開放學習」為主軸，期盼以開放的方式，在線上陪伴所有學習者，不分年齡、不需要學籍，只要你想學習，我們隨時都在線上陪伴你。

`自由選修 ＋ 開放提問 ＋ 現學現提案 ＝ 零時小學校 SSR 成就解鎖`

整體課程架構包含課程影片、作業驗收、課程工作坊與最後的夏日黑客松，每堂課都是資深社群參與者的知識精華，學員在自主觀看影片學習之後，可以透過作業、工作坊和夏日黑客松，實作社群專案，找到協作的樂趣！

營隊沒有任何身分與年齡限制，不是學生也可以參加，歡迎有興趣的朋友報名參加零時小學校線上源力增能營，為你人生的牌組多添一張 #SSR 成就。

完整參與課程並完成講師指定作業者，可以登記「零時小學校修業時數」，將可領取「零時小學校修業證書」以茲證明。

炎炎夏日，一起來零時小學校，在線上增加開源力！

*【#SSR2021 營隊】報名資訊*

🌈 時間：2021/07/17 - 2021/08/14
🌈 地點：線上大廳（Gather Town）
🌈 報名頁面：https://g0v-jothon.kktix.cc/events/sch001ssr2021
🌈 活動資訊 & 課程資訊：https://g0v.hackmd.io/@jothon/Sch001SSR2021

g0v-jothon.kktix.cc

零時小學校「夏日源理」2021 線上源力增能營 Sch001 for Source Raising

零時小學校「夏日源理」2021 線上源力增能營是 g0v 貢獻者與 g0v 揪松團協作推出的線上課程計畫，以「開源、協作、開放學習」為主軸，期盼以開放的方式，在線上陪伴所有學習者。

HackMD

零時小學校「夏日源理」2021 線上源力增能營 Sch001 for Source Raising - HackMD

零時小學校「夏日源理」2021 線上源力增能營是 g0v 貢獻者與 g0v 揪松團協作推出的線上課程計畫，以「開源、協作、開放學習」為主軸，期盼以開放的方式，在線上陪伴所有學習者。

🌼 1 🌞 1 🌈 1
yutin 18:08:53
今早日本 熱海市 有土石流災情
截圖 2021-07-03 下午5.40.56.png

2021-07-04

宗寶洪 02:42:39
@nano555nano has joined the channel
ky 11:48:31
弄小學校翻到這個覺得懷念
https://g0v.hackpad.tw/--aCZGg48I5pX

g0v.hackpad.tw

#{你的專案中英文名稱} 專案介紹空白模版

！注意！這是模版，請勿直接填寫！ 使用請見：空白模版使用方式 專案簡介 緣由 （為什麼會想發起這個專案，一些背景資訊） 要解決的問題 預定使用者 （成品要給誰用、在什麼場合用、怎麼用） 預定功能 （成品要有哪些功能來滿足上述使用情境） 現有類似專案 （現成的是否可以直接使用？或者有什麼不足之處？國外專案可參考？） 相關專案 （衍生自某專案/衍生出某專案/API串接自某專案.

弄小學校很容易會進入一個考古和懷舊的狀態
🎉 1 💡 1
Kevin Hsieh 13:16:28
@kevin82917 has joined the channel
mikechen 15:32:55
@profmikechen has joined the channel
szuchengsimonlin 18:51:25
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Evis Chen 19:10:47
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Dawn Tsang 19:27:20
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Henry H 19:59:38
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Daniel.Kuo 20:22:51
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雷蒙 20:42:26
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Alice Tung 20:48:16
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蔡志忠 20:52:59
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Tim Chen 21:19:52
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minyuchen0409 21:49:33
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2021-07-05

nick1219 05:17:23
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Ching Wu 09:55:25
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Chun Kuo 10:05:01
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Wan Yu Hung 10:54:54
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isabelhou 11:32:50
gov諮詢：1. 如何以公私協力方式，建立與政府作業及便民服務相關之共用資訊服務開發環境以及類似GitHub的程式庫。2. 建構兼顧資安與強韌性之行動及分散式作業環境與資訊平台。詳情請見hackmd，並加入#digital_development 討論。

<https://g0v.hackmd.io/IAUJVKR-TD2gWEGfyMfJuw>

6 😮 1 🔜 3
929band 11:57:00
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陳洧農 12:17:09
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isabelhou 12:35:16
929!
3 🎱 3
bess 15:02:19
也許像星星
delightfullychaotic 16:26:19
天狼星

2021-07-06

黃晧哲 10:26:53
@yuitokyo has joined the channel
立立安 11:28:36
@vilian has joined the channel
weiling lin 14:03:37
@weilingforwork has joined the channel
Victor Wang 14:58:25
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吳思嫻 16:24:49
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9c1 17:34:30
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isabelhou 17:41:10
https://thediplomat.com/2021/07/can-taiwan-provide-the-alternative-to-digital-authoritarianism/

thediplomat.com

Can Taiwan Provide the Alternative to Digital Authoritarianism?

China and Taiwan are becoming digital states in parallel — China as a digital authoritarian regime, and Taiwan as a digital democracy.

5
Gamin Wu 20:12:31
@gamin1998 has joined the channel
tmonk 21:49:44
"In a fight against a pandemic, mistakes are going to happen. The trick is to learn from them. (Taiwan)"

https://youtu.be/0fhaEIlGux4

YouTube

How Taiwan held off Covid-19, until it didn't

minexo79 21:56:02
哈囉，之前有跟一些人討論過關於防疫加油的發想，剛剛整理成共筆了，有興趣的歡迎跳坑！
https://g0v.hackmd.io/Zz8GnN-SSouFqZQ7Z726RQ
minexo79 21:58:52
哈囉，之前有跟一些人討論過關於防疫加油的發想，剛剛整理成共筆了，有興趣的歡迎跳坑！
https://g0v.hackmd.io/Zz8GnN-SSouFqZQ7Z726RQ
minexo79 21:59:10
剛剛整理成共筆了，有興趣的歡迎跳坑！
https://g0v.hackmd.io/Zz8GnN-SSouFqZQ7Z726RQ

g0v.hackmd.io

防疫期間加油活動 - HackMD

4 3 3

2021-07-07

sailplaneTW 09:26:46
@sailplanetw has joined the channel
billy3321 11:11:55
小小打一下廣告，青平台的數位民主實驗平台將在週六展開關於能源轉型的討論，xn--pol-ir7el6ak6iwkk96h4r2e.is，豐富我們當天會議的討論唷！
https://pol.is/2cdkcsmmpk

pol.is

提到能源轉型，您想知道的問題是什麼？

提到能源轉型，您想知道的問題是什麼？ 為了探索使用網路理性討論的可能，青平台「數位民主實驗平台」計畫以[能源轉型](<https://twfuture.care/energy/>)作為主題，自 6 月 14 日起，展開三階段的討論。歷經第一階段資料整合、第二階段挑戰與困境的討論後，現在，我們即將召開第一次專家會議，針對台灣在能源轉型上面對的挑戰展開深入的討論，探討這些挑戰背後的脈絡，以及更深層的結構性問題。 在此，我們也邀請各位，透過 <http://Pol.is|Pol.is> 表達您的意見： 關於能源轉型，您想知道的問題是什麼？ 本次 <http://Pol.is|Pol.is> 意見調查將從即刻起持續收集至 7 月 9 日中午，我們將會把最多人想了解的前三名問題，納入專家會議討論的題綱之中，豐富專家會議的討論。 若您想了解的問題沒有在預列選項中，請透過下面留言框，以「我想知道⋯」開頭，表達您想知道的問題；請一次輸入一則問題。

2 2
kiang 11:19:43
最大的問題大概是為什麼先做了那麼久才要問人民意見（嘆）
醒了～要開始超前部署了XD
其實很早就有貼在FB了唷～
指的是能源轉型這件事
台灣一路上其實也有，從能源轉型國是會議，到能源轉型白皮書，都有。

只是，這種活動基本上都類似，只要做得好的，就比較少上新聞，基本上大家就不容易知道。
岔題廣告～ 我目前開了一個 airtable，預計把「減碳措施」與「公有資產類型」的交叉關聯，也會把每一種減碳措施的 抵換方法文件、研究文獻列出

airtable 可編輯網址
研究文獻蒐集資料夾
專案構想共筆(7/30前針對總統盃黑客松提案用
kiang 11:53:58
https://www.inside.com.tw/article/24115-belgian-artist-creates-ai-project-to-publicly-shame-distracted-politicians

如果有大量運算資源可以利用，這類主題好像也很有趣 XD

INSIDE

比利時藝術家用 AI 舉起人民的法槌，幫你監督國會議員上班偷滑手機

不曉得自己的納稅錢花到哪去了？讓 AI 幫你監督上班滑手機的議員們究竟有多少！

問題是，現在開會很需要滑手機呀，不管是跟助理確認一些細節、即時溝通、查資料、查看文件筆記
可以做表情分析，就知道是不是認真工作了 XD
滑平板的表示， pass (誤
滑平板也可以聊天，字大比較方便
感覺這個系統會被濫用來監督員工（就在說你亞馬遜，跟韓國某物流公司？）
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nohUckpGB4E 有在滑手機表示至少有可能是在認真上班
可以幫忙統計打架鬧事的比率嗎？
分析議事音軌？
😆 1
吳浩宇 14:07:16
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Nobuhiro Honjoh 14:58:56
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盧亞蘭 15:24:19
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eva8842 16:25:30
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Robin Tan 19:01:40
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Dai -大輔/東京 19:59:11
Eating spicy Taiwanese cookies in Tokyo 吉祥寺
Image from iOS
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Cheng Chifeng 20:39:32
@hoekcheng has joined the channel
Sukie Lin 22:54:13
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Yuansyun Yeh 23:42:47
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2021-07-08

isabelhou 10:25:56
https://www.asahi.com/sp/special/seijishikin/outgo/ 國會議員的美食選有日本篇、韓國篇，台灣的在哪裡？@ronnywang 現在的政治獻金開放資料可以做了嗎？

朝日新聞デジタル

政治家 行きつけ20選 飲食店ランキング 政治資金特集「支出編」：朝日新聞デジタル

朝日新聞デジタル｜政治資金収支報告書の支出欄には、飲食店やホテル、クラブなどの名前がずらりと並ぶ。永田町に近い繁華街での高額支出も多い。現職の閣僚や党首はどんな店に通うのか。2018年と19年（20年11月30日までの入手分のみ）分から、独自に集計した。（飲食店ランキング）

轉自#intl @lisa 說她用工人智慧整理了一下國民兩黨監察院 109 的會計報告書XDDDDD
感覺快變成國民黨美食地圖(我猜民進黨是包在行銷公司裡了)
(工事中)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13xzzQKEySYPnRA9hmnIB-tE_eMtoU-oNl8abPd8Rtf0/edit?usp=sharing
108 年的國民兩黨整理好囉歡迎大家拿去 pin google 地圖什麼的XD
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13xzzQKEySYPnRA9hmnIB-tE_eMtoU-oNl8abPd8Rtf0/edit?usp=sharing
台灣版接力一下：
https://www.readr.tw/post/2580
@hcchien407 這是用2020的資料，不是Ky整理那些對嗎？
對，這是 2020 的
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Tony Duan 12:53:12
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s120049 13:20:43
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Huang Joyce 17:01:24
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周東慶 17:32:42
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YC (Yichun) 22:32:59
想請問有沒有基金會、社福團體、各種協會資料（成立時間、地址、理事長、理事名單等）的查詢網站嗎？像經濟部商業司商工登記查詢那種。
查資料時發現這些組織好像是歸不同部會管，又有些只在地方政府層級登記就好，所以資料有點難彙整與查詢，不知道是否之前已經有人做出來了？
謝謝！
kiang 建置的整合查詢網站
https://foundations.olc.tw/
其他各類型組織資料盤點，也提供參考
https://g0v.hackpad.tw/WhCmazsSmry
YC (Yichun) 2021-07-09 12:41:27
謝謝！太強了👍
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ChungHan Hsiao 23:24:52
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2021-07-09

Laron Jeep 08:48:20
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Yiyu Chang 13:47:57
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陳嘉旻 14:37:53
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hkiwi0801 15:54:49
@hkiwi0801 has joined the channel
Zoyam Chuang 16:06:13
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小利 16:53:46
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Kevin Zeng 19:25:45
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tmonk 19:28:19
g0v「沒有人」的線上簽書會 真相製造 by 劉致昕 JS Liu
直播即將開始。 https://www.facebook.com/g0v.tw/live_videos/
活動全程皆可透過 Slido（event code 56752） 提問：
Slido 連結：https://app.sli.do/event/qqqrztsi

活動全程皆可加入線上會議室即時收看、提問：
https://meet.google.com/btx-hepv-eje

邀請您一起協作逐字稿 - 本次活動共筆：
https://g0v.hackmd.io/@R5TFzhglTWiOYfIErpgu5w/rJ7ca_n2O

特別感謝線上會議室贊助：
午營咖啡 https://www.abreakcafe.com/
Slackbot 19:28:24
先承認你就是沒有人
tmonk 19:28:37
活動全程皆可透過 Slido（event code 56752） 提問：
Slido 連結：https://app.sli.do/event/qqqrztsi

活動全程皆可加入線上會議室即時收看、提問：
https://meet.google.com/btx-hepv-eje

邀請您一起協作逐字稿 - 本次活動共筆：
https://g0v.hackmd.io/@R5TFzhglTWiOYfIErpgu5w/rJ7ca_n2O

特別感謝線上會議室贊助：
午營咖啡 https://www.abreakcafe.com/
7 🙌 3
王崴漢 19:34:34
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ting hsiao 19:40:57
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mable Tseng 20:08:56
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taiwan metoo 20:14:13
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Lawson Yang 22:01:09
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立蛹 22:04:33
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You Tong Shen 22:04:57
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micedtcss 22:08:35
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吳姿瑭 22:09:03
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ichieh 22:24:31
新加入的大家歡迎歡迎~~~ 最近有新增歡迎機器人跟大家介紹認識不同的 slack channel，如果對於歡迎詞有修改建議都歡迎提出唷唷唷
chihao 22:41:29
今天關於假訊息、事實查核、公共空間的討論⋯
相關頻道 👉 #cofacts #disinfo
bess 22:47:07
還有想學習怎麼協作 🤘 #edu
1
Herbert Tsao 23:02:20
@herberttsao has joined the channel
chihao 23:17:55
成為天才的協作秘訣（？）
1
Young Chen 23:17:55
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方欣 23:27:24
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ichieh 23:30:49
講個秘訣
👀 1
Slackbot 23:30:54
g0v 的專案是有機的，因為有 bug...
大家跟 bot 的互動比跟真人還多是不是人類危機？ XD
雖說內容是人類的產物也不能說這完全是 bot
純玩笑
好奇這個 Slackbot 的語料能不能有 API 讓 沒有人 自行擴充
😆 9 🐛 2 1

2021-07-10

李大鑽 00:42:07
@encounter has joined the channel
isabelhou 11:59:46
昨晚簽書會的討論頗熱烈，但slido上有些值得深入思考的問題沒聊到，很可惜。光是問題本身，就覺得很有啟發。開了共筆整理了問題，大家可以繼續聊，自由回應。https://g0v.hackmd.io/L4pbeL8hR9ON93NHOmtPjw?view

g0v.hackmd.io

「真相製造」簽書會會後繼續聊 - HackMD

💬 2
Pei-ju 14:11:10
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yungliang1992 20:44:05
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Myron AI 21:07:36
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newairdrop 21:33:10
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Jacky Wong 23:57:57
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2021-07-11

Yukie Liao Teramachi 10:01:22
@yukie has joined the channel
chewei 18:41:45
公有資產減碳措施議題，專案 cowork 時間今晚 pm 8:00
會議網址: https://meet.jit.si/20210704-discuss-project
共筆: https://g0v.hackmd.io/xuKFrzn6TvKC0kQewkutRg
FB 社團: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1417173811903954
• 確認總統盃黑客松提案階段的內容

g0v.hackmd.io

碳匯城鄉 - HackMD

👍 2

2021-07-12

Soth K 02:16:00
@a22252277 has joined the channel
fly 10:21:43
好奇這個 Slackbot 的語料能不能有 API 讓 沒有人 自行擴充
caleb 11:23:55
我想組織一次為期一天的垃圾收集之旅。此線程中的詳細信息： I'd like to organize a one-day-long trash pick-up trip. Details in this thread:
我经常骑摩托车，当我停下来休息时，有时会看到很多垃圾。 我想把它清理干净，感觉真的很好，让每个人都可以享受台湾美丽的山，而不会看到垃圾。

I motorcycle a lot, and when I stop to rest at a viewpoint, I sometimes see a lot of trash. I think it would feel really good to clean this up, so that everyone can enjoy Taiwan's beautiful mountains without seeing trash.
我有以下想法：我想租一辆车，开车到几个这样的景点，然后在那里捡垃圾。 之后，我可以用车把垃圾袋扔到垃圾中心。 无论如何，我将在接下来的几周内做这件事。 不过，如果有人跟我一起，我可以在一天内清理更多的景观点。

I have the following idea: I'd like to rent a car, drive to a couple of these vista points, and pick up the trash there. After, I can use the car to drop off the trashbags to a trash center. One way or another, I'll be doing this sometime in the next few weeks. However, if people come with me, I can clean up more vista points in one day.
我的提议如下： 有兴趣的人，我会在台北市中心接你，为大家买早餐，午餐便当和饮料。 我还会提供垃圾袋、手套和我们需要清理的任何其他工具。 如果我能事先找到足够的新冠病毒测试，我也会提供这些，这样我们都可以一边吃早餐一边做测试（测试大约需要 20 分钟才能显示结果）。 然后，我们可以开车从一个远景点到另一个远景点，清理垃圾。 多好玩哈哈。 我们可以通过打开车窗来遵循 COVID-19 预防科学，当然还可以戴上口罩。 我相信下周不会限制在远离社交场所的饮食，但我们必须拭目以待。

I propose the following: For anyone that's interested, I'll pick you up in a central location in Taipei, and buy breakfast, bento boxes for lunch, and drinks for everyone. I'll also provide trash bags, gloves, and any other tools we need to clean up. If I can find enough covid tests beforehand, I'll also provide these, so we can all do a test while eating breakfast (the tests take about 20 minutes to show results). Then, we can drive from vista point to vista point, cleaning up trash. How fun haha. We can follow COVID-19 prevention science by leaving the car windows open and, of course, keeping our masks on. I believe next week there won't be restrictions against outside socially-distant eating, but we'll have to see.
如果您有兴趣，请随时回复。 根据封锁法律，我们可能只能容纳少数人。 也许 3 或 4。无论如何，您不仅会因为帮助清理台湾一些最美丽的地方而感觉非常好，而且您还会得到一点运动、一些阳光、免费早餐和午餐（也许还有 晚餐取决于需要多长时间），您将可以欣赏到我们正在清理的同样美丽的景色！

If you're interested, feel free to reply. Depending on the lockdown laws, we may only be able to take a small number of people. Maybe 3 or 4. Anyway, not only will you get to feel really good for helping to clean up some of Taiwan's most beautiful locations, but also you'll get a little bit of exercise, some sun, free breakfast and lunch (and maybe dinner depending on how long it takes), and you'll get to enjoy those same beautiful views that we're cleaing up!
Look how beautiful it is besides the trash!
哦，顺便说一句，即使我是外国人，即使你不会说英语，也请随意来。 我的普通话不是很好，但我们仍然可以在合理的水平上交流。

Oh, by the way, even though I'm a foreigner, please feel free to come even if you don't speak any English. My mandarin isn't great but we can still communicate at a reasonable level.
Caleb. I’ve been wanting to do this for a really long time, but I want it to be all of Taiwan!

Let’s make this bigger than just us. I think we could get this idea trending and make it really big.

我最近一直有在想這件事情了。我想讓全台灣有機會參與，讓台灣變得更美好！
Haha ideally yes, lots of people would do it everywhere. The first step is to take action. When I do my one day trip, people can take pictures and upload to social media, maybe that will help. It could be fun to weigh the trash after if possible. 哈哈，理想情況下是的，很多人都會在任何地方這樣做。 第一步是採取行動。 當我進行一日遊時，人們可以拍照並上傳到社交媒體，也許這會有所幫助。 如果可能的話，稱一下垃圾的重量會很有趣。
How about documenting the plan and detail on a hackmd? Since the number of participants on each trip is very limited, people can organize their pick-up trips and share their experiences.
For example, I cannot join Caleb’s trip in Taipei, but I may organize one around Hsinshu.
I also live in 新竹，I would be happy to assist in any way
We could have a pilot run with a few people, and then make something bigger for a future date that would give time to make it BIG.
Exactly what I'm thinking. Small test haha
for now that can be a document for organizing a small trip
Tomorrow I'll go on a little day ride to scout good locations for cleaning up. If anybody else enjoys motorcycling and wants to join, let me know!
The weekend of the 28th, some friends and I are renting a car and driving around the mountains around Taipei for a trash pickup trip. More information to come. If you're interested in joining, let us know!

28日的周末，我和幾個朋友租了一輛車，在台北周邊的山上兜風，去撿垃圾。 更多信息即將到來。 如果您有興趣加入，請告訴我們！
28日的周末，我和幾個朋友租了一輛車，在台北周邊的山上兜風，去撿垃圾。 更多信息即將到來。 如果您有興趣加入，請告訴我們！
👏 4 🙌 4
mohsu 13:27:01
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irvin 16:46:33

7/21 科技部開放資料集平台研討會 <https://scidm.nchc.org.tw/pages/twiioengov-userconf2021>

😮 1
毓球錢理路 17:06:29
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黃翌軒 22:36:25
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2021-07-13

ael 12:33:42
想問現在有什麼英文 1922 預約教學懶人包嗎？都開放到十八歲以上皆可填寫意願，但是網站還是沒有英文版。 Au 建議大家開 Google Translation

<http://1922.gov.tw|1922.gov.tw> now opens vaccination intention registration to all people older than 18 years old. The website is crushed right now, probably because of the traffics. Wait a few hours later to register to be on the waitlist. It is a pool to scanning which age to open at which week not tickets according your registration time. You register your intentions to have vaccines in which city/county first. Once you are qualified for that week vaccination, you will get a SMS from 1922 reminding you or official register the vaccination time and place on 1922 The official suggestion for English user is to use “Google Translation” on the browser. Good luck

有一個居留證跟健保卡的門檻在前面，不知道實際上符合資格的外籍人士有多少
要不然我覺得這個表單是足夠簡單了
目前在台灣的外國人很多都有居留證
健保卡號呢？
有居留證的幾乎都會有健保卡
麻煩的是拿就業金卡、工作簽的
過去一整年就業金卡進來的工程師蠻多的
就業金卡 = 健保資格（不用等六個月）
其他無健保者，正在規劃
JunJi Xu 13:20:03
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Kuoying 15:11:44
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bess 15:27:42
【線上活動，歡迎報名】下週六，g0v 揪松團有參與「2021 藝術＋女性主義編輯松」的技術協力，本活動由薇姬的房間（WikiWoman Taiwan）、女人迷（Womany）和 Code for Gender 主辦，g0v 揪松團、Lyra Space、婦女新知基金會與台灣女科技人電子報協辦。
https://womany.net/events/2021art-feminism-edit-a-thon

性別力 Gender Power

2021「藝術 + 女性主義」編輯松｜性別力 Gender Power

薇姬的房間與女人迷 #CodeforGender 共同舉辦 2021「藝術+女性主義」編輯松，邀請各界好手，編寫各領域中有影響力的女性故事、女性主義貢獻者，讓更多人看見女性影響力。

3
Michelle Ferng 15:30:38
@mferng623 has joined the channel
caleb 19:34:47
Tomorrow I'll go on a little day ride to scout good locations for cleaning up. If anybody else enjoys motorcycling and wants to join, let me know!
👍 3

2021-07-14

zeroplusone 11:46:02
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陳敏華 14:10:33
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2021-07-15

ael 00:15:51
Hi 大家好，找疫苗網站 vaxx.tw 2.0 剛上線了！

雖然 1922.gov.tw 目前開放 18 歲以上成人都可以登記了，但是 1-8 類造冊的仍然有地方衛生局、各醫療院所分散的預約系統並行，例如孕婦疫苗門診。所以我們利用爬蟲和人工整理，整理出上百個施打站可以預約的電話和網址，幫大家省一點時間，把 pdf 和圖片中的網址弄出來。滿抱歉的，因為人力有限，資料沒有齊全以及真的 realtime updates，只是希望能在疫苗登記系統完全整合到單一平台之前，幫助大家在分散平台找疫苗。

同時也希望我們初步整理的資料可以幫助到社群的夥伴。

找疫苗網站（資料持續整理中，翻譯尚未完全）
https://vaxx.tw
raw data: （還沒有選好授權）
https://airtable.com/shrTeVFs7JH7Auvr4/tblj6V2hTsgv6fwRF

有興趣加入網站和資料協作的朋友，可以到 #vaxxtw 參與。目前圖卡需要 OCR 更新和一些部分仍然需要人工更新。

感謝 @sandrahtlin @kevinliao @yoyohotline @sean076 @teemocogs @ronnywang @terry.f.wang @yt.lydia.han @ggm @s864372002 在很短的時間內，梳理疫苗接種現場的需求，並迅速協助整理資料、爬蟲、設計、前端開發。

vaxx.tw

全民新冠肺炎疫苗資訊 COVID-19 Vaccination Information

全台醫院COVID-19疫苗名額的現時資訊 Real-time Data about COVID-19 Vaccination Appointments in Taiwan.

Airtable

地方疫苗預約連結整理（對外分享用） - Airtable

Explore the "地方疫苗預約連結整理（對外分享用）" view on Airtable.

SNS寫一篇？推一下。
🚀 14 5 2
Vivian Wang 12:01:57
@vivian9172001 has joined the channel
bess 12:07:22
\ 歡迎協作、轉貼，分享再分享 /

https://g0v.hackmd.io/@jothon/community99-2106

> 「無論是誰，都可以成為幫助台灣防疫的力量！」
> 「加入 g0v 社群，以行動消除不安，以協作回應挑戰。」
病毒沒有假日，g0v 社群貢獻者的防疫腳步也沒有停下，如果你有心想要貢獻所長，不只是寫程式，逐字稿、畫圖或整理資料，也可以成為防疫關鍵一份子！

本次更新專案：
• 75 歲以上疫苗施打方案共筆 #vaccine #covid19
• 紓困方案資訊彙整共筆 #vtaiwan
• 台灣 COVID-19 相關資料資源收集 #covid19
• 台灣開放教育推動團隊 #edu-open
• g0v 揪松團：g0v 黑客松（g0v Hackath44n）與「線上活動怎麼辦？」線上協作工作坊 #jothon
• 臺灣好植地 #tree
• NDI INFO/tegrity Workshop #disinfo #cofacts #covid19 #jothon
• g0v「沒有人」的線上簽書會：真相製造 by 劉致昕 #disinfo
如果你的專案有更新進度，也歡迎在共筆協作！

HackMD

g0v 社群每月九分鐘 - 2021/06 - HackMD

「g0v 社群每月九分鐘」是 g0v 揪松團發起的分享文，每月上旬更新，希望每月可以用九分鐘的時間，跟你分享 g0v 社群第九年的每月趣事。分享文是在 HackMD 上發表的共筆，歡迎共同編輯。

💯 4 5 3
Slackbot 12:07:28
先承認你就是沒有人
✅ 4 1
Kelly Lin 18:51:29
@kellykailin has joined the channel
bess 19:39:43
https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C027VH2GXNW/p1626349145000900

【零時小學校「夏日源理」2021 線上源力增能營倒數 𝟚 天】 再過兩天，g0v 社群的 `零時小學校 Sch001` 講師群（g0v `揪松團` `vTaiwan` `地理圖資專案` `Disfactory` `線上揪松` `WikimediaTaiwan`）就會上線陪伴大家過暑假！ :sunny: 「營隊前夜祭」2021/7/16（五）20:00 - 21:00 GMT+8 :rainbow: 「營隊開幕式」2021/7/17（六）14:00 - 16:00 GMT+8 :sunny: 活動詳情：<https://g0v.hackmd.io/@jothon/Sch001SSR2021> :rainbow: 哪裡找揪松： <#C027VH2GXNW|edu-camp> <#CN64A1FHA|edu> <#C0385B90D|jothon> 噢！最重要的 Gather Town 會議室網址以及加入密碼，都已經寄發給大家，請到報名信箱尋找（或者在垃圾信箱翻一翻），若真的沒有收到，請來信 <mailto:jothon-organizers@g0v.tw|jothon-organizers@g0v.tw> 告知 g0v 揪松團。

kepler yung 23:33:11
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2021-07-16

Jolin LU 13:54:41
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2021-07-17

YC 01:24:10
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Chiao 11:55:42
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ichieh 14:01:29
SSR2021 零時小學校線上源力增能營終於要開始為期一個月的課程了，今天 14:00 直播歡迎大家一起參與：https://www.facebook.com/g0v.tw/videos/769155047086786/
✅ 4 5 👍 3 ✔️ 1 😀 1
Joy 14:25:32
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hellow
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hi~
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kuenlin.lu 16:06:15
Hellos
3
邱晨境Ken 16:12:08
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Wen-Chi Kuo 16:15:33
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Digoo Chang 16:17:17
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ichieh 17:03:17
以上大部分都是今天揪松團主辦的 「零時小學校線上源力增能營」（名字超長）的新參者們，坑主們歡迎多多介紹專案開始搶人大戰（？）
蔡欣翰 17:19:38
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Liz Lin 18:10:19
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tofus 18:15:02
好開心喔有好多學生加入！
高中生或大學生都歡迎到#students 哈拉喔（或是討論那神奇的學習歷程＠＠）
Monica 18:15:05
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rfaychen 19:13:06
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莞琳鄭 19:32:35
哈嘍大家好 補課中
4
張仁哲 22:28:41
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2021-07-18

Tzu Chien 10:26:07
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Janet Kuo 23:54:42
也是補課中
👋 5

2021-07-19

aa0906198787 04:29:57
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caleb 08:00:26
Woah. 很多人lol
5
Everle 10:07:57
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棠 19:35:14
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Guo-Jim 21:27:11
發現 slack archieve 看不到回覆的討論串，跟 @ronnywang 說一下，會寫程式的說不定也可以看一下 原始碼
CollageMaker_20210719_212031120.jpg
Void 22:26:32
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2021-07-20

Kudoeil 松思帆 05:41:45
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ichieh 14:25:46
嗨嗨大家~ 八月g0v 黑客松（大松）目前預計仍然是在 Gather Town 舉行，歡迎大家來提案命名跟投票~~~ 投票命名截止本周五 7/23 https://g0v.hackmd.io/@jothon/ByfViJ4A_
`本次跟 Wikimedia Taiwan 和 水土保持局共同主辦喔`

HackMD

2021／8 大松命名 - HackMD

# 2021／8 g0v 黑客松（大松）命名 :::info - 預計 8/21 週六舉辦 g0v 第肆拾伍次黑客松 Hackath45n - 本次與水保局與台灣維基社群共同舉辦 - 同時徵主題圖

🔜 4
Milo Chen 18:54:42
有在用 Gather Town 大家可以看看這個訊息喔，來自 Gather Town 官方的互動，
他們目前在尋找台灣的 partner 。我是希望 Gather Town Taiwan User Group 之中可以讓人們更多關注社會的人 ，所以將這資訊分享在此，讓更多人可以有一會，在 Gather Town 的平台之中，可以大家一起努力，建立一個更美麗的新世界。
https://www.facebook.com/groups/178816644148798/permalink/210691384294657/

facebook.com

Log In or Sign Up to View

See posts, photos and more on Facebook.

8
張育寧 19:53:39
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Ted 顥天 21:23:03
哈囉大家，我是台灣開放教育推動團隊TOEDU的發（坑）起（主）人 Ted，
我們最近在總統盃黑客松上提了案，希望能夠整合國內OCW平台，
但我個人跟爬蟲不熟，因此想在此徵求，
我們希望能夠有工程師協助我們爬各大學OCW的課程資料，
有興趣者請左轉 #edu-open，拜偷各位了！

Saxode's Notes on Notion

國內大專院校OCW

OpenCourseWare

咦跨校的怎麼沒有列 TOCEC
https://www.tocec.org.tw/web/index.jsp
Ted 顥天 2021-07-21 16:57:49
哎呀忘記了 感謝提醒 待會補上去
我也順著查到 臺灣通識網～
已筆記至 notion~
3 🙏 2 1 📖 1 2 ↩️ 1
底 22:10:41
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2021-07-21

ChingHua 00:19:13
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clkao 17:10:17
https://www.data.org/charting-the-data-for-good-landscape

data.org

Charting the 'Data for Good' Landscape - data.org

There is huge potential for data science and AI to play a productive role in advancing social impact. However, the field of “data for good” is not only overshadowed by the public conversations about the risks rampant data misuse can pose to civil society, it is also a fractured and disconnected space.

vic just 22:58:28
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Ben (本意) 23:16:54
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2021-07-22

joy9399 00:11:30
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白杰 10:15:05
誠徵！

我們公司最近希望能找些在台 JAVA 的工程師。有意者可以私訊我 😃
Mar Marín 19:57:00
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bess 19:57:03
營隊的課程都有錄影，改變主意想中途加入的人都可以補課～～～
https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C027VH2GXNW/p1626949305070400

我寫了一篇【零時小學校「夏日源理」2021 線上源力增能營】開幕式摘要，歡迎大家參考，順便再次提醒大家本週六有 Office Hour！ <https://g0v.hackmd.io/@jothon/HJ-iKOSAO>

🙌 3
Mar Marín 19:59:36
Heya! 👋🏽 Calling all *Civic Technologists* that transform the world and society! Submit your proposal to host a session at the *Code for All Summit 2021* on September 27-30th (UTC).

→ This year’s Summit will focus on *Open vs. Closed Tech in Government*, *Democracy & Elections, Disinformation & Fake News and Power Dynamics in Tech.* We’ll have different session formats: _Panels_, _Lighting Talks_ and _Workshops_! You can learn more HERE.

→ :alarm_clock: Submit a speaking proposal by *July 31st* :point_right:🏽* HERE.* Ready to share what you know and inspire your peers? Let’s GO! :fire:
STD CfAll V2.png
👋 4 ⏰ 2 🔥 5 2

2021-07-23

alex chuang 00:26:36
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hayashi 13:03:12
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mingchichen1213 13:36:18
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tmonk 13:49:30
Internet Archive 25th Birthday. 🎂
https://anniversary.archive.org/
👍 2
Yonye Ma 14:17:17
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bess 14:49:56
\ 零時小學校新夥伴 /
https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/CN64A1FHA/p1627022121420000

\ 伴伴學來啦 / <#C028JBN5H2B|edu-accomdemy>

🙌 3 2 1 4 1 2
Misawai 15:31:16
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C.H. 17:25:22
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minaerpapa 21:10:49
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hcchien 21:10:55
台灣版接力一下：
https://www.readr.tw/post/2580

READr 讀+

政治獻金美食篇！立委最愛哪些小吃、飲料店？當地隱藏版美食勝過連鎖店 - READr 讀+

全國三級警戒兩個月後，行政院終於在今日宣布，將於 7 月 27 日降為二級警戒，且餐廳只要採用隔板、梅花座等防疫措施，就可開放內用。解封之後，大家期待去哪裡大吃一頓？READr 爬梳 2020 年立委選舉政治獻金近 16 萬筆餐飲支出明細，帶你一窺立委候選人心目中的在地隱藏版美食。

🚀 7 2 🧋 4
minaerpapa 22:04:56
大家好，我是第一次想要報名零時小學「夏日源理」活動的新手，在KK Tix 上面報名7/24日的必修課程時卡關了，似乎需要輸入密碼（g0v成立日期）才能報名，請問有好心人可以提示怎麼取得密碼嗎？
1024。7/24是office hour，必修課的影片在這裡，https://g0v.hackmd.io/mY__VLVARIusICkf1kkqWg
minaerpapa 2021-07-24 02:55:43
謝謝妳~
1

2021-07-24

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2021-07-25

祐仔 21:02:36
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2021-07-26

cwj0325 02:39:11
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PeterWolf 14:43:58
請教一下，這一年多來的疫情記者會，有沒有人做了提問和答覆的記錄？

感覺可以做個指揮官答覆bot呢。
目前沒有看到統一的逐字稿
偶而打個一小段就要吐血了，每天都要完整紀錄的話，只能看縣市政府要不要放出他們原本的直播聽打稿了
可以去抓疾管署YT的字幕阿XD
好主意
稍微搜尋，大概從去年3月底開始有字幕吧
往前的我看看公視新聞網YT有沒有
是的，我剛剛己經下載了一份，正在研究
感謝
公視新聞網YT 去年3月初開始有字幕
縣市政府的話，台北有柯P逐字稿，台北市政府網站會有美化過的市長新聞稿專區
其他縣市政府網站的新聞稿沒有到逐字稿程度，有用雅婷逐字稿的縣市也沒幾個
柯P的逐字稿（如果是直播時下面顯示出來聽打的那個）沒有真的很逐字，他大概會漏掉 50% 的字，訊息內容大概會有 15% 的 Miss
沒有到速錄師的完整程度
🤖 2
minghan Xu 18:51:57
@xuhan0325 has joined the channel
S. 19:05:09
@ronnywang there is an urgent matter I tried to reach you regarding. I sent multiple emails and even left message on GitHub - could you please answer my emails?
S. 19:05:48
@ronnywang could you please answer my DM? There is an urgent matter I've tried to reach you multiple times about.
S. 19:14:05
For reference, I am leaving here a link to GitHub issue I've opened out of desperation, hoping someone can finally take a notice:
https://github.com/ronnywang/twcompany/issues/23
ocy 20:05:25
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李柏均 20:12:55
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Mar Marín 21:35:32
Heya! 👋 🤯 When you come up with a great session proposal for the *Code for All Summit 2021* 🚨 Remember you have 5️⃣ days left to submit it. Let's GO! 💨👉 *bit.ly/CfAll21-CFP*

→ This year’s Summit will focus on *Open vs. Closed Tech in Government*, *Democracy & Elections, Disinformation & Fake News and Power Dynamics in Tech.* We’ll have different session formats: _Panels_, _Lighting Talks_ and _Workshops_!

🔎 Read our *Call for Proposals* for more info ➡️ *bit.ly/CfAll_CFP21*
CfAll Back to the Future.gif
🚨 2 2
小朱 23:34:11
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2021-07-27

Scott K. Wong 00:19:18
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S. 13:06:27
I am taking my issue public as it's been too long people responsible for it have been ignoring me.

I got to know that few Taiwanese websites list my personally identifiable information (my personal names along with company data) and abuse this data by monetizing it with ads. I investigated further and got to know Ronny's g0v website to be one of the main sources of this data as he made it more available to others to fetch it with APIs.

I do understand this open data is provided by the government but that does not mean he should be scraping it without any privacy principles and _*at the very minimum*_ - the ability for someone to have this data removed at their will.

For that reason, I decided to send him an email with a request to have my data, hoping it would be processed in a timely manner.
That did not happen. It's been over a month, and my constant emails, Facebook messages, even an opened GitHub issue (!) and now direct messages here on Slack are being ignored by the main author of this project. Not even a single message like: "Hey, I received your message and I am aware of your request.".

To clarify: I am not here to correct g0v policies or have someone sit down and discuss for weeks what they should do with my or similar request that will happen in the future. I just simply want my data to be removed - plain and simple. If that leads to changes in privacy policies in g0v in the future - great. But for now, please, just remove this data.
S. 13:06:56
I am taking my issue public as it's been too long people responsible for it have been ignoring me.

I got to know that few Taiwanese websites list my personally identifiable information (my personal names along with company data) and abuse this data by monetizing it with ads. I investigated further and got to know @ronnywang g0v website to be one of the main sources of this data as he made it more available to others to fetch it with APIs.

I do understand this open data is provided by the government but that does not mean he should be scraping it without any privacy principles and _*at the very minimum*_ - the ability for someone to have this data removed at their will.

For that reason, I decided to send him an email with a request to have my data removed, hoping it would be processed in a timely manner.
That did not happen. It's been over a month, and my constant emails, Facebook messages, even an opened GitHub issue (!) and now direct messages here on Slack are being ignored by the main author of this project. Not even a single message like: "Hey, I received your message and I am aware of your request.".

To clarify: I am not here to correct g0v policies or have someone sit down and discuss for weeks what they should do with my or similar request that will happen in the future. I just simply want my data to be removed - plain and simple. If that leads to changes in privacy policies in g0v in the future - great. But for now, please, just remove this data.
S. 13:20:36
@ronnywang I don't know why you are ignoring me but my request to remove my data does not require you to study any law or consult it with others. Just like if you would reach out to me and asked me to have your data removed, I would do so without hesitating.
S. 13:25:11
My friends who also have their personally identifiable information on your website and a bunch of other Taiwanese websites, also voiced they are not happy with this fact. It's time to do something about it.
ronnywang 13:25:27
抱歉因為我英文沒那麼好，我擔心用英文寫用字沒那麼精準，我用中文寫，再麻煩您自行轉換成英文了。
S. 13:27:03
如你所願。 但我的要求不需要你向我解釋任何事情。 我只想刪除這些數據。
ronnywang 13:36:39
當初製作 https://company.g0v.ronny.tw/ 的目的是因為台灣的商業司查詢網站很難使用，因此製作此網站更方便大家查詢使用，為了使網站能有公信力，我並不打算對裡面的資料做任何我自行的塗改遮蔽，裡面的內容要與政府公開的內容全部一致，我會手動更動的條件是我網站內容與政府不一致而我的爬蟲可能沒有正確抓到時才會這麼做
4 👍 4
S. 13:46:18
事實上，通過尊重人們的隱私，您正在使您的平台更加可信。
adzen 13:47:32
路過
「開放資料內的公司或商業資訊，被下載或經加值應用在其他網站上，是否涉及隱私被侵犯？有個資外洩之議題？」
https://data.gcis.nat.gov.tw/ns/qa/detail?oid=1921B2C1-153E-4AFD-9121-AA77D9393E45
👍 7
ronnywang 13:55:41
我也尊重隱私，我同意隱私是很重要的。但是公司負責人的姓名這個資訊我不認為他算是一個隱私，至少在台灣的法規上已經是合法公開的資料不受個資法保護。但我並不確定 GDPR 針對歐洲公民相關資料是否有更嚴格的保護限制，如果有的話我這邊也願意針對 GDPR 做更正，這點就需要麻煩熟悉 GDPR 的朋友是否能協助說明了，謝謝
I've already spoken to a lawyer about it. I am protected because:
a) company data is different from natural person data. So you can list my company name or TAX ID but not my name, my email, or even my title that allows someone to identify me.
b) "information in relation to one-person companies may constitute personal data where it allows the identification of a natural person" - that also applies here.
@ronnywang @101adzen I've already spoken to a lawyer about it. I am protected because:
a) company data is different from natural person data. So you can list my company name or TAX ID but not my name, my email, or even my title that allows someone to identify me.
b) "information in relation to one-person companies may constitute personal data where it allows the identification of a natural person" - that also applies here.
The discussion is related to how search engines handle removal of personal information from search results, e.g. Google Search’s removal policy. The case you’ve made thus far does not appear to qualify based on Google’s removal policy.
Also, removing something from Google's servers is not =/= removing it from a website. I think we start to diverge from the issue I am trying to solve here: I want the data to be removed from g0v website (just like it was removed from another website I requested). I am not talking here and now about Google's SERP - I will worry about this later.

Please don't misinterpret my original request.
Removing data from Google's servers does not equal removing data from a website.

I think we start to diverge from the issue I am trying to solve here: I want the data to be removed from g0v website (just like it was removed from another website I requested). I am not talking here and now about Google's SERP - I will worry about this later.

Please don't misinterpret my original request.
👍 9 👀 2 1
Sohee Yun 13:56:16
@sohee.yun has joined the channel
S. 13:58:13
我也製作網絡工具。 我在設計時考慮了隱私原則。 無論當地法律如何。 它應該來自你。
S. 14:00:04
如果您環顧四周，就會發現每個可信平台都有某種數據刪除工具或流程。 這些工具只會在未來變得更加普遍。
S. 14:01:39
所以不要等到當地的法律趕上來——它們可能已經過時了，不能滿足當前的需求。 相反，成為改變並展示如何完成。
clkao 14:02:17
好奇 S. 在意的點是哪些呢？
1. 個人資訊被拿去放在有廣告的網頁
2. 個人資訊在 company.g0v 容易被檢索
3. 個人資訊在 company.g0v 的公開資料集，以致於讓 (1) 容易發生
4. 個人資訊被政府工商服務登記公開
商業登記資料是重要的開放政府治理基本資訊，英國甚至要求所有權 25% 以上的股東 (PSCs) 就要揭露，台灣僅要求董事揭露。不過在隱私跟公共治理之間如何平衡，這是值得討論的。
Let's start with the first 3, as they are the easiest to address.
Let's start with the 1,2 & 3, as they are the easiest to address. It's mostly about 1, 2 & 3.
S. 14:03:05
即使我不是欧洲人，你也应该尊重我或某人的意愿（不管他们的国籍或现居住地）。
阿昇同學 14:03:50
資訊揭露的義務並不能完全使用隱私的理由來規避喔
S. 14:04:51
"資訊揭露的義務並不能完全使用隱私的理由來規避喔" - okay, waiting for the moment when it will be required for the schools to list down names of your kids online. How will you feel about it? Will this still be your argument? Don't try to play God.
S. 14:05:34
So, don't try to play a God.
shiva.huang 15:15:30
Does students *own* the school? I don’t think they are the same situation. If you think your information should not available on the web and you want the *source* to remove it, it should be the government. If you think web sites should not use your information and make money with ads, you should contact the site owner who put ads on it. So why you think g0v should take the responsibility to help you hide your information published by the government?
I think you completely missing the point of my request. Please refer to my original message.
The moment you collect and process someone's data, you *are* responsible for it. There is no "I think". It's a fact.
I will chase any website owner or project's author who collects or process my data. This is not a particular requests I am doing to g0v only.
I will challenge any website owner or project's author who collects or process my data. This is not a particular request I am doing to g0v only.
g0v is fully responsible here as it contributes to the further spread of my personal data. Even @ronnywang admitted that he wanted to create a more accessible place for this data.
shiva.huang 2021-07-27 15:30:07
Ok, let me try to clear that.
1. Your information is published on the web.
2. Some web sites listed your published information and puts ads on it.
3. You don’t want your information public, especially someone make money with it.
4. Your information is public because you’re corresponding with a company, so the government make your information public.
5. g0v organized these information from government, without any modification.
6. You asked g0v to modify the data they fetched from government to hide your information?
Does I misunderstand something?
My question is, why you think g0v, which doesn’t make money from these data, should modify or mask these information they fetched from government?
I am not sure what is your point here. I have a simple request - which part of my request you don't understand or want me to clarify?
shiva.huang 2021-07-27 15:32:05
You’re correct! g0v should responsible for the correction of the data! That’s why they would not mask these information the fetched from government!
You completely missing the point. I requested for my data to be removed, not modified or masked.
shiva.huang 2021-07-27 15:34:06
If you don’t want your information listed on government provided data, I don’t think g0v is the one you should contact with.
g0v takes an active part as a data processor and I have full rights to request the data processor to have my data removed. Which part of my request do you dont understand here? If you act on behalf of the legal team for g0v, my lawyers will be in touch. But if you don't, you are not contributing by acting like you know what you are talking about.
shiva.huang 2021-07-27 15:52:07
I know you have lawyer*s*, and they’re ready to take your money. And I know you have the right to declare you have the right. Really, I do know.

The only thing I don’t know is, does the data processed by g0v incorrect? If so, which part is incorrect? If not, are you asking g0v to provide incorrect data to the public?

If your question is “I don’t think the government provides such detail information about a company owner, what should I do?” I think you can find someone here to discuss with you and make take some action to make a change.
🍿
Reading with comprehension is not your strong suit, isn't it?

Let me rephrase: I don't care whether g0v data is correct or not, I care about not having my data processed and displayed on the website - am I crystal clear now?
shiva.huang 2021-07-27 17:11:11
I can also rephrase that: I don’t care whether the government provides or not your information, but g0v should provide these data as it is - does that solve any problem?

Of course not. And you can call your lawyer*s* to sue me now. Just tell your lawyer*s* “this guy don’t comply my request to make g0v provide incorrect information to the public. So sue him!” I believe your lawyer*s* will very happy to take this easy case and easy money.
Excuse me, why do you care? This is my PII, not yours. And I have the right to have it taken down, whether you like it or not.
shiva.huang 2021-07-27 17:22:45
Excuse me, why shouldn’t I care? This is my country provided these data. And I have the right to make sure these data is correct, whether you like it or not.
Stop acting like a dog and start acting like a human.
Because you see, I wouldn't even question someone's request if they came to me and wanted their data removed. My inner integrity tells me they have every right to have the data removed from my website. I don't need to debate over it, question them, or try to act like I am entitled to hold their data hostage. I would simply do it. Cause I respect others.
And maybe, just maybe, one day you will get that too.
P.S. I don't need your stupid comments here.
shiva.huang 2021-07-27 17:35:54
I think we should stop arguing like two little children. You don’t care what cause this problem, and you don’t care about the name of g0v. I do provided you the possible solution to cooperate with g0v to solve this problem, but you choose to ignore it and tried to terrify people here.

Let me remind you to care about your words. Not only you have lawyer*s*.
尊重不同意見是討論的前提，並請遵守COC。https://g0v.tw/coc/
Solution??? I already wrote multiple times over a span of a month and so far no solution in sight - no one addressed my query, my data is still publicly displayed as of now.

So maybe we can stop chatting about solutions and actually do something about it.
And the way everyone was acting so far: either ignoring me or now attacking, doesn't make me feel any better.
shiva.huang 2021-07-27 17:52:21
Have you read this? https://g0v.tw/coc/
Who claim he have lawyer*s*? Me?
Who claim other acting like a dog? Me?
Who claim other comments stupid? Me?

So please tell me, who is attacking?

The suggested solution is, discussing with people in g0v about: is it suitable government provides information about a company? How to balance the information people should know about a company and keep the owner safe?

But as I said, you ignored it. You just want us to comply your orders. No thanks.
You clearly have no idea about this entire situation - the fact that my messages have been ignored for all this time and that this is the very first time @ronnywang actually reacted to what I wrote and answered me - likely because I took the matter publicly and he can't continue to ignore this.

For all this time, there was a silence from him. It doesn't matter what language you speak, you can translate the message and at least write something like "hey, I am aware of your request, sorry for silence from my side" etc. . That did not happen.

And now, when I took the matter publicly and asking for a simple request of by the way - not yours, but my data to be removed, instead of actually helping me, you are putting head into the sand.
Just ban the guy, we shouldn't have to deal with people calling our members dogs or being rude about their English ability
@caleb but that's exactly what I have been told by someone who exchanged information with Ronny directly - they said that his poor English ability didn't allow him to respond earlier.

Which btw I did not buy because for all this time he was fully aware of the emails and messages I have been sending his way and it only took literally a single sentence translated via Google that he is acknowledging my request.
There's many national languages in Taiwan. None of them are English, last I checked. Also, you called another person a dog lol. Pretty uncalled for imo.
Aren't you a business owner in Taiwan? Mandarin requirement for effective communication shouldn't be a surprise to you at this point...
Yup so at least have balls when you upload someone PII and answer emails in Mandarin or whatever language you want instead ignoring them. I know how to use Google translate.
williams8199 17:12:15
@williams8199 has joined the channel
John Lee 17:42:47
個資法19條第1項，非公務機關對個人資料之蒐集或處理，除第六條第一項所規定資料外，應有特定目的，並符合下列情形之一者：
三、當事人自行公開或其他已合法公開之個人資料。

-> 商工行政服務入口網 已經公開
👍 1
kingman 17:49:27
其實頗好奇公司法、商業登記法對於負責人以及公司相關資訊的披露，與個資法的範疇

引用adzen的連結，公司法、商業登記法已經強制規定要公開公司、行號的負責人、股東等相關資料，但是連結又有但書有相關個資法規定
_2. 本平台所公開之資訊，涉及公司資料部分，尚不適用個人資料保護法(以下簡稱個資法)， 而公司資料中之自然人姓名雖適用個資法，惟任何人如擬自網站蒐集個人資料，仍應符合個資法相關規定，如行為人違反個資法時， 台端得依個資法行使權利，以確保自身權益。_

而clkao又提到英國也要求大股東揭露原則，且也是開放政府治理的基本資訊

那政府法律已經規範必須要強制揭露的資訊，公開資料又已經完全公開的企業、行號與個人資訊(*負責人姓名、董事、監察人與股東姓名*)，其他人可以合理引用的範疇？又個資法相關的合理引用、違法侵權型態？ 以及政府機關對於相關法律的遵守程度？
https://data.gcis.nat.gov.tw/ns/qa/detail?oid=1921B2C1-153E-4AFD-9121-AA77D9393E45

https://law.moj.gov.tw/LawClass/LawSingleRela.aspx?PCODE=J0080001&FLNO=393&ty=L
依公司法第393條規定，公司下列登記事項，主管機關應予公開，任何人得向主管機關申請查閱或抄錄：
   一、公司名稱。
   二、所營事業。
   三、公司所在地。
   四、執行業務或代表公司之股東。
   五、董事、監察人姓名及持股。
   六、經理人姓名。
   七、資本總額或實收資本額。
   八、公司章程。
   前項第一款至第七款，任何人得至主管機關之資訊網站查閱。


https://law.moj.gov.tw/LawClass/LawSingle.aspx?pcode=J0080004&flno=19
依商業登記法第19條規定，商業之下列登記事項，其所在地主管機關應公告於資訊網站，以供查閱：
   一、名稱。
   二、組織。
   三、所營業務。
   四、資本額。
   五、所在地。
   六、負責人之姓名及出資額。
   七、合夥組織者，其合夥人之姓名及出資額。
   八、分支機構之名稱、所在地及經理人之姓名。
   公告與登記不符者，以登記為準。
👍 4
kingman 17:54:09
以及另一個文化因素的樣貌也很好奇，台灣、日本的偏東方的文化，與歐洲，以及美國的文化，對於個資、隱私、自由，以及公共利益的關聯互動

記得去年台灣一開始就要求口罩，絕大多數的人也都很願意配合，日本也是公共利益對比個人自由、利益，口罩也是可被要求的
但是同時間美國、歐洲有大量新聞與抗爭，關於戴口罩這件事情

又我們對於疫苗接種，群體免疫這件事情是認同的，但是法國現在正在抗爭疫苗接種與否的自由


延伸的，台灣對於個資相對得很不尊重，也很不重視，歐洲卻有GDPR，有點好奇個資、隱私、自由，以及企業、社會與國家群體公共利益的互動，以及個資、隱私、自由，在不同文化中的定義和型態
ish 17:56:00
According to my observation, main point here is that the both side have different understanding towards “representative”. One side may think those personal data are used for the communication between the government only and this should be kept as confidential. However, the other side’s (including government) idea is, the representative’s data should be accessible to the public since this person represents the whole organization. (And that’s why lots of people have their own business phone, business email, etc).
Now the data is opened for everyone. In my opinion, those who don’t want it to be disclosed should stop it from the original source instead of stopping it from the entities treating the consistency as the measurement of correctness. If the data does not reside in the original source, it will be a breeze for the personal to ask for removal from the downstream.
That doesn't change the fact that a person has a right to request to have this data removed, whether it exists at the source or not.
It’s not my intention to discuss whether you have the right or not. I will leave it to your lawyers and the counterparts. Here I only provided you a strategy about where to start.
Fact #1: g0v is not an official government body.

The part you are missing here is that g0v or other 3rd party projects/websites are not official government bodies, therefore they should not act like one.

If for whatever reason, an official government body opens this data, this does not mean that another party can collect/process/abuse it and disregard altogether privacy laws.
Yea it does.
👍 3
kingman 18:00:38
其實還有另一個交連，行號沒有法人，所有的一切都歸屬於自然人，而公司為法人身份，負責人、股東的揭露問題，以及與自然人的關聯性？

是很多法人出事都是會計和負責人抓去處理拉，過去的文化背景也是公司出事，找股東和負責人賠到底，而不僅限於法人(法律)的範圍
S. 18:08:12
I already said at the beginning I am not coming here to debate over your policies, Taiwanese law or tell you how to design your platform.

In fact, I have never heard of g0v before until I get to know it processes my data, without my consent. I didn't ask to be here, neither I asked to purposely sign up to your Slack group - I was forced to. Because all the other ways of me trying to reach out to the project's authors did not work, which alone, already does not sound right to me.

Seems like some people feel bad that I came here and tell them what to do - excuse me, but I didn't ask you to put my data there. So if it is so hard to process a simple data removal request, simply don't process other people's data without their consent and you will never have to deal with requests like mine.

And definitely, you shouldn't feel surprised I am unhappy with how this entire situation is being handled - first being ignored and now being attacked.
S. 18:11:45
It doesn't take a lawyer to process my request. It just takes someone with a bit of empathy.
S. 18:19:34
Also, everyone misses the point that just because official government body provides this data publicly, it does not mean we need to copy this information left and right across 35434542 websites and act like we are entitled to process someone's personally identifiable information without their consent, and without at least the ability to request to have this data removed.
S.想要移除的資料是「姓名」嗎？除了「姓名」以外，網站上似乎沒有其他個人訊息？
I want to remove the data that identify me as a person: my full name and a title.
I don't mind the company name being there - that's fine.
@isabelhou I want to remove the data that identify me as a person: my full name and a title.
I don't mind the company name being there - that's fine.
Lynn Deng 18:23:11
協助轉貼：GreatFire is hiring! 需要一位精通Chromium的開發者，幫助進行“自由瀏覽“的開發，詳見：https://zh.greatfire.org/xuanshang/5?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=pmd_a02ee20abc749e21df5af917d558599504d6ad2a-1627380954-0-gqNtZGzNAeKjcnBszQki
John Lee 18:23:37
也很好奇這情況是否適用個資法第三條（個人可要求刪除的權利），要求政府不公佈應該一定不行，但要求 crawler 刪除很可能可以
Yi-Chung Dzeng 18:27:24
company.g0v應該不算是無特定目的的crawler, 不會有蒐集個資特定目的消失的狀況。他蒐集並mirror一份在我看來也有顯而易見的公共利益
👍 3
kingman 18:27:24
還有一個可能的文化歧異點
在台灣，別人我是不知道，但是至少我以及我周遭，我們處理事情是以情理法為順序，法律只是道德的最低底限，以及合約是在關係撕破臉的時候才會拿出來用，平日處理很多事情，如果能夠互相幫忙、通融，就會讓彼此的關係以及事情能夠順利的走下去，讓事情處理好比較重要

而在溝通的過程中，提出律師、法律，讓律師來找你談心，在我的感受已經是微恐嚇的模式，逼近撕破臉的階段，以及台灣傳統上好像很不喜歡法律和法院，很多事情都會進可能的避免到這個階段
👍 1
John Lee 18:28:45
那也只是蒐集本身沒有觸法，但不見得也可以拒絕「刪除的請求」
dchensterebay 19:11:18
https://blog.104.com.tw/%E5%80%8B%E8%B3%87%E6%B3%95%E7%B3%BB%E5%88%97%EF%BC%8D%E6%B3%95%E4%BA%BA%EF%BC%88%E5%85%AC%E5%8F%B8%EF%BC%89%E8%B3%87%E6%96%99%E6%98%AF%E5%90%A6%E5%8F%97%E5%88%B0%E6%9C%AC%E6%B3%95%E4%BF%9D%E8%AD%B7/

104 職場力

個資法系列－法人（公司）資料是否受到本法保護？｜104職場力

公司為法人的一種，法人資料之所以不在本法保護之列，是因個人資料保護係源自於保護隱私權概念而來，而隱私權在民法上是屬於人格權的一種，法人或其他商業組織並無人格權受保護的問題。其次，法人資料通常涉及社會大眾知的權益或公共利益，除符合營業秘密法規定而受到保護的營業秘密資訊外，應予公開，故本法明定保護對象僅限於自然人的個人資料。

dchensterebay 19:11:41
引述上文：
「惟上述公示的法人（公司）資料中，揭露有該公司股東、董事、監察人或經理人的姓名（雖僅有姓名，因該姓名仍可與其他個人資料相對照、組合或連結，而得以間接識別特定個人，故仍是屬於本法所稱受保護的個人資料。），這些依公司法規定公示在外的個人資料，是否即不受個人資料保護法的保護？根據法務部民國104年8月7日法律決字第10403509940號函釋要旨略以：「工商行號資料有涉及負責人（自然人）部分，若其他法律明定應公開或提供者依其他法律辦理，但就未規定部分仍有前述法律適用（作者註：指個人資料保護法）。 」，亦即任何人不得未依個人資料保護法之規定而違法利用該當事人的個人資料。」
dchensterebay 19:12:18
所以問題最後會回歸到這些資料的確是受個資法保護
dchensterebay 19:13:13
建議是讓政府去扛這個資訊保護的責任，我覺得這位當事人的確有權要求自己的個資移除
dchensterebay 19:14:09
個資法：
第 3 條
當事人就其個人資料依本法規定行使之下列權利，不得預先拋棄或以特約
限制之：
一、查詢或請求閱覽。
二、請求製給複製本。
三、請求補充或更正。
四、請求停止蒐集、處理或利用。
五、請求刪除。
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-27 19:27:26
個資法第三條講的是不得預先拋棄　實際上的請求類型和條件須見第十一條
公務機關或非公務機關應維護個人資料之正確，並應主動或依當事人之請
求更正或補充之。
個人資料正確性有爭議者，應主動或依當事人之請求停止處理或利用。但
因執行職務或業務所必須，或經當事人書面同意，並經註明其爭議者，不
在此限。
個人資料蒐集之特定目的消失或期限屆滿時，應主動或依當事人之請求，
刪除、停止處理或利用該個人資料。但因執行職務或業務所必須或經當事
人書面同意者，不在此限。
違反本法規定蒐集、處理或利用個人資料者，應主動或依當事人之請求，
刪除、停止蒐集、處理或利用該個人資料。
因可歸責於公務機關或非公務機關之事由，未為更正或補充之個人資料，
應於更正或補充後，通知曾提供利用之對象。
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-27 19:29:50
至於非公務機關處理個人資料的限制和限制的例外則在第十九和二十條
dchensterebay 2021-07-27 19:40:07
哇哈哈，真的深入去讀就發現很多可以討論的地方
個資法牽涉到公益與個人權益保障問題
必然有衝突跟爭議的空間
感覺這的確是一個很值得上法院判出個例子的東西
有志法律史留名的律師可以試看看

這個議題很讚，但是站在當事人的角度的話....
我是當事人我會選擇迴避這個問題，不過，這的確是可以一爭的議題

水很深.....
dchensterebay 19:14:38
蒐集、處理&利用已經涉及這邊的保護範疇
dchensterebay 19:14:55
我們的g0v終歸並非民意代表（政府）
dchensterebay 19:15:14
在法理上很難說有權去使用這個個資相關訊息
dchensterebay 19:15:26
民眾要透過政府的管道去獲得那是一回事
dchensterebay 19:15:54
我的建議是這部分就把人名等個資相關的部分，改成link回原始政府提供的位置
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shandy 20:55:19
@s0920881288 has joined the channel
Z Maggie 21:51:45
g0v的大家晚上好~
我們是最近新加入edu頻道的伴伴學 Accomdemy，想分享最近提供的新服務給大家👇👇👇
你有目前專案/工作/學習上遇到難以解決的困難需要幫忙嗎？ 讓伴伴學幫你找個伴來學！
伴伴學 Accomdemy 有一群來自科技圈、新創圈、教育圈的夥伴們自發性組成一個線上伴學社群。我們希望透過線上陪伴式學習的方式，讓每個想自學的人在自學的路上有趣又不孤單！
歡迎填寫表單，我們會從伴伴學的社群中尋找並媒合適合的引導者，透過線上陪伴互動的方式幫助你解決問題！
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Google Docs

伴伴學：專案求救信鴿

你有目前專案/工作/學習上遇到難以解決的困難需要幫忙嗎？ 讓伴伴學幫你找個伴來學！ 伴伴學 Accomdemy 有一群來自科技圈、新創圈、教育圈的夥伴們自發性組成一個線上伴學社群。我們希望透過線上陪伴式學習的方式，讓每個想自學的人在自學的路上有趣又不孤單！ 請填寫以下問題，我們會從伴伴學的社群中尋找並媒合適合的引導者，透過線上陪伴互動的方式幫助你解決問題:sunglasses: :exclamation:️小小的提醒:exclamation:️ :one: 盡量詳細說明你目前遇到的困難，這樣我們才能在最短時間內幫你找到適合的引導者 :two: 如果媒合成功卻但是被放鴿子了，我們會對伴伴學的志工以及引導者感到很內疚，所以無故未到將列入黑名單，之後不再受理求救申請，若造成不便尚祈見諒。 還不了解什麼是伴伴學嗎? 伴伴學的運作模式請參考共筆：<https://bit.ly/3jRNMtU>

@maggiekim35 因為slack訊息會洗掉，我先幫忙開了一個hackmd紀錄讓以後的人也可以看到。請自行調整內容囉。https://g0v.hackmd.io/9Ja0CWxAQbCYbYc1HbW36g?both
謝謝你！
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Charlie Smith 22:56:28
@charlie has joined the channel

2021-07-28

pichuchen 10:19:27
雖然還沒有查詢立法緣由，不過在公司公示資料當中揭露姓名應該是避免同一董事持股公司間互相交易造成公眾的不利益，因此需要揭露姓名供大眾識別任兩公司之董監事之關係，然而就目前現況而言揭露程度可能還不夠，有修法空間，舉例來說，他並沒有把實質受益人公開揭露，那因此如果有人將公司以其配偶之姓名或其子女之姓名做登記，是否還能達成揭露姓名帶來之公益性也許有待商榷。

但是從前面的討論看起來 @to 實際上並不認為該公務機關（經濟部商業司）揭露公司董監事姓名有問題，僅要求非公務機關刪除上開之資料（董監事姓名等），然而於個資法第十九條中此資料已經公務機關合法公開，因此 @ronnywang 搜集及處理該資料應無不法。

@dchensterebay 提到個資法第三條請求刪除是一個 @to 可以主張的點沒錯，但是對於 @ronnywang 也是可以主張有符合個資法第十一條的利用目的以及個人資料保護法施行細則第21條的其他不能刪除之正當事由而拒絕 （怎麼有點實聯制的既視感）

但是如果揭露姓名只是為了確認是否有公司同一負責人或是董事此一理由的話，那是否有更好的處理方式也許有待討論，例如收到該個資主體之資料轉換為一內部代碼，舉例來說，把它改成 `ANNO001` 這樣的標示方式，然後點擊下去之後還是可以看到所有 `ANNO001` 有相關的公司，這也許會是個處理方式。

然而這樣做法在實務上可能會有困難，因為在公示資料上只標示姓名，沒有標示身分證字號等，因此如果有人主張他的名字是郭台銘而要求行使整個資料庫上和郭台銘有關之人之權益，應該在執行上會有困難，而且顯然會陷公眾於錯誤。
或者是得請該公司如果需要遮蔽其董事資料，那該公司可以出具證明（公司大小章、負責人簽名或是電子簽章等足資識別不是冒用的證明）來作為請求更正之依據，而在 @ronnywang 的網頁上可能就另加著名「收到該公司來函，要求遮蔽其負責人之姓名」即可，那有需要的民眾可以直接從經濟部網站查詢到該公司實際上負責人之姓名，對於平台而言還是有達到揭露之目的，但是是否為當事人想要的保護方式就不得而知了。
There is a simpler solution and Singapore did it successfully: there is only one source of data, that is not indexed by Google. If you want someone's name - you gotta sign up and pay.

This model is simple and it's working well. How do I know this model is working?

Because no PII data has been leaked over years and popped on various websites, unlike it happened in Taiwan.
What's the website? I'll go ahead and scrape and reupload it 😁
@caleb Only if you can afford it. It's paywalled to weed out people like you.
Then prepare to shell even more money to deal with lawsuits in Singapore.
Ah, so they aren't actually transparent, they only allow upper class citizens access the information. Then, that's an immoral model that other countries shouldn't emulate :) Taiwan's is more ethical.
At least they reply to your emails when you inquiry them about PII.
Mate to be honest I'm not gonna depend on the ethical judgement of someone that has a habit of calling people dogs
Don't bite maybe? ;)
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S. 10:36:13
I appreciate you guys want to have a debate, cite various laws and whatnot.

*But no one seems to notice an elephant in the room: that we need to have a debate for such a basic request in the first place.*
If I put someone's personally identifiable information on my website (regardless of this data is open source or not or that is coming from an official government body), *my moral integrity tells me to remove it upon that person's request*. that if someone ever reaches out to me and wants it to be removed, I would comply with their request, without a single word coming from my mouth.
S. 10:45:54
I appreciate you guys want to have a debate, cite various laws and whatnot.

*But no one seems to notice an elephant in the room: that we need to have a debate for such a basic request in the first place.*

If I put someone's personally identifiable information on my website (regardless of this data is open source or not or that is coming from an official government body or whether the person gave me their consent or not), *my moral integrity tells me to remove it upon that person's request!* I would comply with their request, without a single word coming from my mouth. Not because the law tells me to do so, but because my moral integrity tells me this is the right thing to do.

If we need to have a debate whether or not to remove someone's data, there is something, *fundamentally* very wrong here.

I challenge anyone in this room who feels entitled to hold someone's data against their will, just because it was open-sourced in the first place.
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-28 16:21:56
What you considered too basic for a debate is not regarded as granted here. The consensus here would probably be that when you started a business, that part of you enters public life, and g0v is all about enhancing people's access to public life.
You also seem to accept the model that government agencies solely control the information, which are both private personal data but are also publicly availabe (let's just omit the contradiction here). I can hardly see this idea being accepted here, not to mention the sign-up-and-pay-up part.
g0v is named as a parody spelling of gov for a reason. You have a hard time finding the type of empathy you want here.
Parody or not, you process PII. You can keep enhancing everyone's life with one record less in your database too.
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kjcl 15:14:23
Okay, I'll bite.

It seems, based on your response to @isabelhou's message that you are concerned with the fact that you are attached to your company's name as an owner. You say that this is personally identifiable information that should be private.

I actually think there's reasonable room here to disagree.

Let's make an analogy today to a similar dataset. Campaign finance contributions. Let's say you donated to a political candidate. In either the United States or Taiwan, the established norm is that your name and your contribution amount are now part of a publicly accessible database. This is because while people have a right to privacy, the tradeoff is that society has a right to be informed of the people making campaign contributions.

In fact, the FEC in the United States currently maintains a public API that allows you to query any political donation by name. With a couple keystrokes, I can see who Rupert Murdoch has donated to this year. Is this a violation of his privacy? The Australian Electoral Commission has released public datasets in CSV format of political donations. Should they take these down? Organizations like Open Secrets maintain a copy of this data for the purpose of public transparency and accountability. Does Rupert Murdoch have a right to tell Open Secrets to take down his name?

You take issue with the fact that your name is being listed as the responsible individual for a company. But how do we think about the tradeoff between the public's right-to-be-informed and your right to privacy, using this model I discussed above?

What if (hypothetically), a company was responsible for a large environmental disaster, or an operational failure that resulted in some form of catastrophe?

Shouldn't the public have a right to know the individual(s) responsible for this company?

In a world where companies pollute the environment, damage neighbourhoods, and recklessly ruin lives, isn't having an individual's name behind a company the bare minimum of accountability?

So I will go out on a limb and say: I do think there is reasonable room here to disagree about whether or not this is PII. Also, coming into the Slack and calling people 'dogs' is not very nice.
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S. 16:10:18
Do you know what's not nice? When someone is taking a piss on you for over a month and then when you take things public, they care more about saving their face than actually helping 🙂

You also seem to completely miss my point: I never said people should not have a right to know the name of the owners. And trust me, there are simple solutions to this problem.

There is a difference between having my names plastered all over the web on some non-gov websites vs my PII accessible from one central place that is protected from search engines and gate-walled (at least a signup). Some countries are doing that. You can have the privacy of the people, and let the public still see the data at their will. Win-win.

Your "what if" scenario is not an argument either - if an owner of the company is wrongdoing and there is a public outcry about the specific company, surely the government will go after them and if this is something related to a public matter, release the names. Same with the "corrupted politician" example someone mentioned to me in private conversation. Removing publicly displayed data does not hide someone's money or make them evade the law - the government still has all the records, just that they are not displayed publicly (not to mention the fact that a corrupted politician still has basic human rights too). Then you might continue to argue and say - but wait, someone could alter the data in an official government database. Well, if they alter the data, your little crawler is going to pick it up anyways, rendering your data "incorrect" and there is nothing you can do about it.
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kjcl 16:18:37
> There is a difference between having my names plastered all over the web on some non-gov websites vs my PII accessible from one central place that is protected from search engines and gate-walled (at least a signup). Some countries are doing that. You can have the privacy of the people, and let the public still see the data at their will. Win-win.
Now we're cooking with gas. 🙂 So it seems the issue you're having is not that your PII is on this publicly accessible API, but that there are no meaningful access constraints on this API. If the project owner were to introduce meaningful access constraints like key-based authorization, would that be a proper balance between the public's right to be informed and your desire to introduce some degree of friction and accountability in accessing this public data set?

You may not be familiar with how g0v operates (which is confusing to everyone!), so to be clear, I cannot speak for the project owner or for g0v, but I'm just seeing if there's a reasonable compromise to be struck here (which was the purpose of the discussion we're having!)
S. 16:24:29
My proposed solution:
• don't scrape, store and process PII (names that is) on g0v - leave this info on the official government body website.
S. 16:25:56
I did not get to know that my names are publicly displayed from a gov website - I saw Google search results that pointed out to at least 5 different websites in Taiwan. None of these sites were government websites. Also, the government did not abuse my PII, the 3rd party websites did.
kjcl 16:26:12
But as many people have tried to discuss with you, it is debatable whether or not the names of directly responsible individuals for a company constitutes PII.

Should Open Secrets take down their campaign finance databases (which are not official government websites)?
S. 16:27:42
If someone request to have their name removed? Absolutely, they should take it down.
S. 16:28:44
The problem is not you scraping public info. The problem is when you refuse to remove it and keep it against someone's will.
kjcl 16:28:46
So to be clear, if Rupert Murdoch or Jeff Bezos wrote to Open Secrets and asked to remove all data Open Secrets had on them (publicly available), you believe Open Secrets has a moral obligation to take it down?
The are public officials and surely require different considerations. Especially Jeff bezos
確實。Ronny在他的發言裡也提到這點。
I don't know whether a guy who flies rockets wants to have his name plastered with ads without his consent but perhaps you can reach out to his legal team and ask what they think about?
I don't know whether a guy who flies rockets wants to have his name plastered with ads on a 12-year old website without his consent but perhaps you can reach out to his legal team and ask what they think about?
Just a thought :)
S. 16:31:04
So you feel entitled to own someone's data against their will? Whom are you policing? Or rather - who are you, to police it?
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-28 16:36:35
Citizens.
The basic philosophy of g0v might summarize as follows: Whatever the gov is doing, citizens should try to see if they can do it themselves, most of the time in a better manner.
Somehow, people call it a "better manner" and no one minds process someone's data against their will until their data is being processed against their will 🙂
公司資料我覺得不能完全用這個角度處理.

公司對個人來說實力是比較強的, 所以我們才有消保法跟勞基法. 你現在其實已經不單純是行使個人資料保護的權利, 也接近以公司的立場要求個人移除資料了

換個角度想, 公司要是有問題, 民眾討論其成員的名字時, 若公司成員仍有權力要求去識別, 其實多少是在扼殺言論自由吧?
個人跟公司的分野還是有, 但這裡的姓名資料完全就是公司那邊的, 很難說 "我代表我個人要求你拿掉網站上我們公司中有關我的資料" 的同時你又不代表公司. 如果你們公司不希望董監事資料因為被移除而怕被人誤會怎辦?
或者說因為移除資料而導致資訊不實, 造成潛在的偽造文書的問題, 又該怎辦? 據我所知很多機關(甚至是政府的)有在用 ronny 的網站查資料.
Yi-Chung Dzeng 16:31:14
After reading the debate here, I checked a bit the court rulings with regards to 個資法第十一條，when people request their PII to be taken down from press reports or search engine autocomplete suggestions. @to may be interested to know the outcomes, which are almost always based on arguments of proportionality to public benefit. I also believe that is the right way to go.
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S. 16:31:15
Who are you policing?
kjcl 16:35:55
I'm gonna go eat dinner, but all I wanted to say was that at the end of the day, I hope this exchange demonstrates to you that reasonable people can disagree on what's happening here, and there's no need to be mean about this.

please be well!
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Quentin Brasseur 19:51:20
Not legal advice and not giving an answer on whether S.'s data can be processed

• Is the name of a director a personal data? Yes, it is. I believe the definition in the PDPA is clear. The fact that the information is public, or linked to a company (which is not personal data) doesn't put it in the "public domain" (which is a different thing).
• Can personal data (PD) be processed without the data subject's consent? Yes. Consent is only one of the legal grounds that allow a data controller (e.g., the g0v project) to process PD. In the case at hand, a data controller may also process data based on TW PDPA Art. 19 "6. where it is necessary for furthering public interest, 7. where the personal data is obtained from publicly available sources unless the data subject has an overriding interest in prohibiting the processing or use of such personal data". [6. can make sense but one can wonder about whether it is necessary. 7. fits better but is a weaker legal ground]
• Does this mean that one can do whatever he wants with data made public lawfully? No. The PDPA sets limits based on good faith, interests, the purpose, etc. (Yes, that's broad. Such a broad definition is necessary to let people balance the interests at stake).
• The data subject has rights e.g., ask to stop collection/processing, erase data, get a copy, etc. The data controller has 15/30 days to accept or reject the request (if the request is rejected, I understand the option is a civil complaint - a confirmation would be interesting).
• Thoughts on the interests at stake. S.'s has interest in his privacy. The society has an interest to know the identity of the legal representative of a company. I don't know exactly the reasons in Taiwan but Trade Registers are generally used to determine whether someone can validly engage a company (which may have an impact on his responsibility). Otherwise, how a third-party knows he's really having an agreement with a specific company? I believe that what is key is that the personal data collected from the Trade Register is processed for a purpose in line with that specific purpose (e.g., scrap that data to populate a list of prospects wouldn't be lawful IMO).
I digress but I'd like to stress one thing about data privacy: Don't think my privacy = my consent or it's unlawful. That's wrong. There are other legal grounds (in the PDPA and in the GDPR) that are generally more adequate. Take the GDPR as an example: it is known for being more protective of data subject's rights. However, it is advised to use the consent of a data subject as a last option. A specific case: one of the EU Data Authority issued a fine of 150.000€ to PwC because they were using the consent of their employees to process their data for HR/Payroll purposes, instead of using a more appropriate legal ground such as complying with a contractual obligation (employment contract) or their legitimate interest.

Hope the above is useful and accurate (I'm not a pro on this topic but spent some time on it) :slightly_smiling_face:

References:
1. Taiwan PDPA (English): https://law.moj.gov.tw/ENG/LawClass/LawAll.aspx?pcode=I0050021
2. An analysis that is more easily readable than the law https://iclg.com/practice-areas/data-protection-laws-and-regulations/taiwan
3. If you're curious: the fine for using consent instead of the appropriate legal ground: https://edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2019/company-fined-150000-euros-infringements-gdpr_en

International Comparative Legal Guides International Business Reports

Data Protection 2021 | Laws and Regulations | Taiwan | ICLG

Data Protection Laws and Regulations covering issues in Taiwan of Relevant Legislation and Competent Authorities, Definitions, Territorial Scope, Key Principles

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naush 19:54:58
I’m not a lawyer, so I’m not sure I can contribute to this conversation meaningfully. But I want to share a few quick observations.

1) I want to say Taiwanese generally favors collectivism over individualism, which is not an excuse for not respecting data privacy laws elsewhere, but might explain the reactions and general attitude toward this issue among this group.

2) g0v is an open-source community where decision-making is decentralized. As far as I know, there is not a single representative who can unilaterally make policy changes or require any individual contributor to change their code, so I am wondering what is the expected outcome here?

At this point, I feel invested in seeing where this discussion goes. I want to thank @to for being patient with the community and highlighting this issue. For my own education, I would love to see a clear definition of the legal role & responsibilities of g0v projects when we are acting in the capacity of a data processor w/ regard to local and overseas data protection laws. I wouldn’t mind helping out with the translation of this exchange and (hopefully) the eventual outcome. I think it will be good for the existing and future g0v contributors.
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chihao 19:55:03
Have not been following the entire discussion here but think it might be good that thoughts from @qbrasseur (and others) be recorded in a hackmd 😄
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chihao 19:56:06
To record the trace of this discussion before it is eaten by Slack (context: g0v.tw still uses a free version of Slack which limits scrolling back to see old messages)
同意是個重要需要記錄的對話，尤其是對社群未來處理各種開放資料及removal request，logbot 好像掛了？有人正在把對話存到hackmd嗎？

我們也需要思考極端一點的狀況，例如：由政府公開但不好存取的公共資料若含有個資>>被 g0v 爬下來做成更容易應用的 API>>除了公益性質的應用外，該API也被拿去用在非公益且對當事人有巨大傷害的應用上 (比如色情、暴力、假訊息)，g0v 作為資料的中介者 (讓資料變得容易存取的角色)，有 (a) 法律責任嗎 (b) 道德責任嗎？
我的想法是並沒有「不好存取」這件事，但是實際上確實可以做一些機制來限制存取者身份，如此 g0v 如果要把他公開就得多做一些事情，舉理來說，在查詢頁面限定需要先登入 e政府的帳號密碼，系統會記錄查詢者的身份，那在這種情況下 g0v 去複製這些公開資料可能就得得到政府機關的授權了，而政府機關有可能不會同意授權所有的公司資料
不過單就公司登記資料的案例來說好了，坦白講，g0v沒做也是有其他的網站在做，而且還加上廣告，搞不好主機還放在國外...
g0v --> g0v 專案坑主
@mglee 每個人道德標準不一，我覺得可以直接跳過想有沒有責任，先假設有一點點責任（至少心裡可能會難受？）然後試提一些機制嘗試降低這些可能性（像是 ronny 現在提出的這樣）但要一直同時考量開放資料的公益性，不然（可能？）會變成「沒做就沒事」，然後就 bye 了 XD
tkirby 20:13:53
就情理法來看吧
情面上, 網站主的確可以移掉個人資料, 皆大歡喜, 但通常這就是看網站主高不高興, 雙方要合意.
談理的話, 公司方要求個人移除公司成員姓名, 這種事要是被認可, 感覺會妨害公共利益? 不然某公司負責人做了壞事, 就誰敢討論就威脅告誰就好啦~
底線是法, 但這大概就是提告, 讓法院判決? 或者請律師給看法, 然後雙方尊重律師的說法?
ronnywang 20:30:47
很謝謝很多人提供法律上相關資訊，我這幾天錄完零時小學校的 QGIS 課程後，會想來把這些討論整理成共筆，是很有意義的討論。

我先回覆 @to ，我無法給你時間，也無法保證我會將你的名字從網站上遮蔽，因為我目前還不覺得這是我一定要做的事。

我很認同隱私權的重要性，但我不認為姓名跟身份連結就一定是需要被保護的隱私。舉個例子，立法委員、行政院長的姓名也是個人資料，難道也是只有政府網站可以公告，民間網站提到只要當事人要求就必需將名字去除嗎？立委或官員的姓名可以被大家自由討論連結使用，有他的公共利益價值在，如果只有政府有公布的自由，對公共利益的傷害非常的大。

那問題就會回到，那公司負責人的姓名的公共利益的程度能跟立法委員和政府官員相比嗎？這問題就沒那麼簡單了，郭台銘和路邊飲料店負責人姓名的公共利益性就差很多了。但假如果今天網站提供了飲料店負責人可以申請遮蔽他的姓名，那之後郭台銘的法務也來說要我遮蔽，我要用什麼樣的標準同意飲料店的遮蔽卻否決郭台銘的遮蔽？這邊有幾個選擇：
1. 誰來申請都幫他把資料刪除：這或許是你最認同的方向，就算郭台銘來也一樣有他的權利，但這樣這資料可能就失去很多公共利益性了
2. 我可以審核哪些人資料可以幫他刪除，哪些不刪：如果有夠好的標準我覺得這會是個好方案，但我並不希望這是完全靠我個人的判斷，我沒有資格也沒有能力做這個判斷。
3. 比照現有公司法以及商業司資料公布：這就是我選擇的現況了。
你前面主張政府也有提供這些資料，政府已經有公布了，因此該有的公共利益已經足夠，民間不需要做這些事。這點我並不認同，我當初會做這網站就是因為政府的不夠好用，這也是很多 g0v 的朋友為什麼會想要推動 open data ，我這邊公司資料也幫助了像台電30億敦親睦鄰追追追以及一些 g0v 專案，而這些都是政府本身作不到的。
@ronnywang 可有意願評估一下前面有人提出的選擇 4 嗎：誰來申請，都把這個人的姓名 hash 起來，但保留能用這個 hash 查到所有有連結的公司資料的功能？也就是不完全刪除，但也不透露姓名，的方式
但這方法也適用於郭台銘以及任何立法委員或其配偶姓名嗎？如果是的話就比較等於方法1了，而這樣可能會讓之後想要做一些公司與立委之間利益迴避的研究的計劃難以進行
👍 22 1
tkirby 20:45:49
如果主張政府已經有了, 民間就不能放的話, 我覺得不光是政府好不好用的問題, 而是已經在妨礙資訊的散佈, 或者說變成言論自由等級的問題了
👍 1
S. 21:39:24
@ronnywang I sent you first email on June 20th, 2021 asking to remove my data from your website, and multiple follow ups after, which never been replied.
Is this your official reply and a rejection of my request?
🇹🇼 1
ronnywang 21:47:40
我很想在 g0v 這邊討論有什麼樣標準可以判斷哪些公司負責人姓名公開有其公共利益不適合遮蔽，哪些公共性較低可以遮蔽，如果有我認為很不錯的方法我會處理公司負責人姓名的遮蔽。
但你可以先當作我拒絕你的請求，如果你想要主張個資法第13條的話
👍 1
isabelhou 21:52:07
這裡有個問題，如果要判斷「哪些公司負責人姓名公開有其公共利益」，就必須在同意移除前，取得更多個人資訊，但當事人未必願意。
👍 3
chihao 21:52:43
不知道可不可以有公開的清單紀錄哪些 g0v 專案收到了哪些隱蔽資料的要求，還有隱蔽了哪些內容？
記錄了哪些隱蔽內容，不就沒隱蔽了ＸＤ
https://github.com/cofacts/takedowns
cofacts 就有放在 github
剛剛也是想到 cofacts
可以記錄某個統編他想要隱藏某項資訊
foundations.olc.tw 還蠻常收到的，甚至直接打電話來還不表明自己身份
那怎麼知道要移除什麼 XD
所以@ronnywang 根本不知道對方要他移除什麼，直到我問他是不是要移除姓名。
他就一直盧，要我先答應他他才要告訴我
這就是我在前一則發言說的「如果要判斷「哪些公司負責人姓名公開有其公共利益」，就必須在同意移除前，取得更多個人資訊，但當事人未必願意。」
@isabelhou "所以@ronnywang 根本不知道對方要他移除什麼，直到我問他是不是要移除姓名。" - this is a *false* statement*.*

Ronny was clearly aware from the very beginning of what data I am referring to as I clearly stated that in my email sent to him on June 20th, 2021.
you
好，更正: @ronnywang 有提到S. 要求他移除姓名資和其他個資，但不清楚其他個資是什麼。@to did mention “name among other data”, https://github.com/ronnywang/twcompany/issues/23 .
@isabelhou I would appreciate it you *do not link to my Github*, given you keep records of these chats outside of Slack. Also, I was referring to my email I sent to him on June 20th, which was my very first message to him.
🤔 1
pichuchen 21:54:44
不好意思我又要用中文發一篇了。

具體來說我認為 @to 提的這個問題不是完全沒有道理的，但是公司公示資料的表示方式各國作法不同，有些確實也是十分老舊需要作法，但這不代表台灣就得 跟著新加坡的作法去做。

我剛剛去看一下新加坡的作法，基本上新加坡政府網站有公開資料以及需要付費的兩階段作法，公開資料部分也有被複製到其他第三方網站，公開資料不含負責人姓名，但是含註冊地址，付費資料一筆需要約 SGD 5.50 元，裡面含股東姓名，ID 國籍 個人住址，因此真的沒辦法說台灣或是新加坡哪邊的作法比較好，但是已公佈住址為例，可以確定的是他對於有兩間房子以上的人會比較有利，因為他不一定會住在登記住址上，因此可能可以免於騷擾。

另外再讓我舉以日本為例，日本政府印象中早期沒有提供一個官方的平台來揭露公司資訊，但是如果是上市公司的話可以在 Yahoo.jp 查到資料（對，民間公司），不過日本公司慣例上會在自家網頁上主動揭露公司資訊，包含董事長（代表取締役）姓名，但通常不會有公司統編（也有可能是這東西才剛推不久的關係）。
不確定有沒有其他取得非上市公司取得公司董事資訊等的方式。

那需要付費才能取得資訊的系統舉例來說台灣的戶籍謄本系統就是這樣，需要一張約20元台幣，然後要在指定時間才能使用。所以資訊需要付費不見得是完全不能接受。


另外是公司資料應該要登記什麼？早期台灣的公司登記還有提供「印鑑證明」，後來發現這個東西根本於法無據，所以就取消了，而最近開始導入工商憑證之後，政府也朝著廢除大小章的方向進行，另外是目前台灣公示資料會有「登記資本額」和「實收資本額」，但是對一般民眾來說恐怕不是很清楚這兩者的差別，多一項資料反而多一次令民眾陷入錯誤的機會。因此在前一次的公司法修法也對於閉鎖型公司取消股票面額以及登記資本額登記。

所以說是否公司資料一定要顯示負責人姓名這點確實是有討論空間的，在留著的益處沒有很大，但是對於沒辦法找到人頭的公司負責人來說造成的損害較大時，或者是阻礙了外國人來台設立公司的意願時，其實也不是不能討論移除的，不過就像是前面提到日本的案例一樣，日本人覺得在自家網頁上放上負責人姓名是一件自然而然的事情，所以台灣人也沒有特別認為公開負責人資訊有特別奇怪這樣。
One thing is for sure: I never had a case in Singapore where one of my companies or my PII data would be copied and displayed publicly over on various non-government websites. So this model works well and I can vouch for it. It’s a win-win for both sides - public and company shareholders.
由於資本主義的性質，公司及其所有者比個人擁有更多的權力。 個人必須集體行動以壓制公司。 集體行動的一種方法是利用國家迫使公司為人民的利益行事。 我認為公司向公眾隱瞞信息是不道德的。 無論如何，所有公司都依賴於公共資源而存在，並且在使用公共資源時不應該允許他們保守秘密。
due to the nature of capitalism, companies and their owners have more power than individuals. individuals have to act collectively to overpower companies. one method of collective action is to use the State to force companies to behave in the interest of the people. I believe it's unethical for companies to hide information from the public. One way or another, all companies depend on public resources to exist, and they shouldn't be allowed to keep secrets when they are using public resources.
戶籍資料跟公司負責人姓名不能同等類比，前者是個人資料，後者是依公司法必須公開的資料。
@caleb somehow, if my users/customers ask me to delete their personal information, I don't make a fuss about it. So no, not every company is an evil and act against you. We are people too.
To reiterate what @isabelhou has just mentioned above, company owner's data is different from personal data, as in the former is required to be made public by laws. Let's no get side-tracked from your original requests, shall we?
The original issue is that I don't have anything against this data to be available to the public. But currently, the way this data is available, is up for the abuse and I reiterated it why and how multiple times here. I also explained how Singapore deals with it and why their model is better.
I am people too 🧡
@pm5 let me reiterate it again: I don't have anything against an idea where a person wants to access information about the names of the owners, if needed. But currently, the way this data is available, is up for the abuse and I reiterated it why and how multiple times here. I also introduced model used in Singapore and explained why their model is better. Once again: I never have a single occurrence in Singapore where my PII would appear on random websites.
Yes, completely understand the situation you're facing here as best as I can. But we are in Taiwan's jurisdiction. You have a company registered in Taiwan. I failed to see why this isn't discussed under the current Taiwanese law, as @pichuchen has been trying to provide, but in Singapore's examples.
Well, let's put it this way: in Taiwan the privacy laws clearly aren't the best and there is a room for improvement.

But even that, regardless of current laws and a country we are in, people also have some moral ethics right?

For all the years I have been running a business, we (my colleagues or me) _*never*_ rejected someone's query if they wished their PII to be removed, be it their name, or their email or a credit card information. We don't need to consult a lawyer or ask them further questions, we simply remove their data. And we don't do this out of fear that law is on X side here, we do that because this is a right thing to do.

So law is one the thing, but being a good human is another thing.
i don't really think you're making a strong case for the 'good human' thing but to each their own i guess
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-28 22:37:36
In case it wasn’t clear, I sincerely disagree with your ethical arguments in this case, and consider it just and fair to reject your request to remove your name from Ronny’s site.
to me, being a 'good human' doesn't mean coming into an online community, mocking other people's English abilities, calling them 'stupid', 'dogs', threatening them with lawsuits even as they try to contextualize and understand the nuances behind the situation you're facing.

if you're here trying to make a good-faith case appealing to our common humanity, I would try a different tact next time round!
Please don't take things out of context and see what circumstances I found myself in.
Totally agree that the laws are a baseline, and we people can act by our conscience and moral ethics. Then again, the PII made to your companies, if I'm mistaken, probably is not requesting to remove company owner's data? Which, as you must've understood now, does involve public interests, and there are equally justifiable moral arguments to make them public as @ronnywang has given here -> https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C02G2SXKX/p1627483066268000?thread_ts=1627475447.172500&cid=C02G2SXKX
I really don’t think we should spend time on discussing who are good human and who not. The reason what this case raised such a big discussion is exactly that this community here cares the public interests as well as the privacy of everyone on this planet. In the end, we all are private person and general public at the same time, aren’t we?
i understand where you're coming from but I disagree. i think there are two conversations to be had here. at the end of the day, we have a CoC and I believe it was violated.
i come to g0v more than any other online community because this is a safe, kind space, and how we respond to these incidents defines the future of this community.
Back to the case, S. said in this discussion above, “But currently, the way this data is available, is up for the abuse and I reiterated it why and how multiple times here.”

If THE WAY this data is available is the problem of S., then what if the government itself made this data so available and easy-to-use that a third party can take it without effort for commercial use? Should the government take this data down? Or should it make it so hard-to-use that it impedes the use both commercially and for public interests? If the privacy and public interests cannot be satisfied simultaneously (which is obviously the case), what should we (you, Ronny, the community here, everyone in the society, and the government) do?
So before you point fingers, see what lead to this situation.

I am not the one who is wrongdoing here.

Instruct your members that if they want to process someone's PII, they might get queries like mine and it would be nice if they at least somewhat showed they care and responded to emails. Otherwise this doesn't put you in the best light if you just act nice when things go public.
You have community and CoC, I have a right to ask questions when you process my PII, is simple as that.
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-28 22:56:35
The circumstance you are in, as I understand, is that the following two pieces of information - your name and its connection to the business you own - being recorded and passed around publicly by non-government bodies.

And I consider this circumstance fine. (Also speaking as someone affiliated with a now-dissolved corporation registered in Taiwan, but it shouldn’t affect the argument either way). Registering a corporation lets you create a legal person and redistribute certain responsibilities. The least one should do would be to disclose the identity of the representative natural person, so the chain of responsibility does not lead into thin air. (that easily)

And in fact this level of data visibility has lead to the discovery of questionable public project biddings before, which visibility projects similar to Ronny’s has contributed greatly to, including his own. This is a very good example of “forking the government” IMO.
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-28 23:01:54
Also please understand that no one here is in the position/habit of instructing another. The best we do will be to advise or suggest.
@caleb 其實我完全不同意你的看法就是了，台灣可能有一大票的新創公司他的實收資本額小於一間在台北市的公寓，所以到哪邊的資本能量較強沒辦法從他是否為公司這點做判斷。

這部分應該是您對「公司」這個組織型態有所誤解，原則上公司是種以該國法律規定所規定的法人，有點類似「社團法人」「財團法人」這樣，而公司原則上是以營利為目的的法人（台灣公司法第一條）

那成立法人的好處主要在於財產等可以歸於法人名下，以及民事責任可以和自然人切開以保障自然人的安全，那早期台灣有規定最低資本額限制，有限公司需要五十萬元，股份有限公司需要一百萬元，現在已經沒有了，所以任何人都可以在台灣成立公司。

基本上成立公司本身會多多少權力我個人是沒什麼感覺，但是登記地址會多一大堆垃圾信是真的，然後如果辦公室電話登記住家的話，常常會有人打電話來說要找陳先生這種事問說最近有沒有需要徵才也已經習慣了。實際上有些大公司在進行發案的時候會希望可以對上的是法人而不是自然人，原因在於如果對上的是自然人，那必須要還處理勞健保、二代健保、稅籍資料，那在處理這些東西之前還要再處理個人資料同意書等等的，因此如果是法人對法人的形式的話可以讓事情比較單純，這個大致上是我想到成立公司最大的優點吧？
@mail.hkazami actually, the way it was initially (this data on a government website, not easy to retrieve) was good. Only after Ronny picked it (he clearly acknowledged he wanted to make it more accessible to the public) and make it an API, other websites started abusing it. So the solution was in front of our eyes for all this time - keep it in gov site in not so easy to access way. But I am afraid now this solution won't work anymore because too many people took note, so the Singaporean model seems to be a better fit.
@to Singapore is Singapore, Taiwan is Taiwan, Same-sex marriage in Singapore is illegal, but is legal in Taiwan. So you can't measure Taiwanese moral by Singaporean moral, otherwise you will feel disappointment in Taiwan.

If I go to US and say that Taiwan is better because there are no guns and marijuana what would US people think?
Yeah Apple and bananas. But this is not my point here. My point was, no need for the names to be copied all over the web, they can be in one place and have people inquiry for release when needed (by sign up or whatever).
But, actually, in fact, there many website copy public data form their gov:
https://opencorporates.com/companies/sg/53142741B
https://xn--zcklx7evic7044c1qeqrozh7c.com/companies/6290803002968
https://www.tianyancha.com/human/2255808625-c61111911
So I think the only problem is Taiwanese (or Chinese) people believe that posting the owner's name of a company on Internet will make good public interest.

And @ronnywang make an ad-free website which just copy the public data from gov. So what gov provides, what they copy.
But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.
--Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
@*pichuchen* please note the fact that that data does not include names of persons. Names of directors/shareholders are paywalled and this is done for a reason - to prevent bad actors from copying it carelessly.
@pichuchen 我並不是說每家公司本質上都是邪惡的，只是本質上更強大。 當然，也有異常值，比如你說的新創業公司。 當然，一家初創公司的權力不如一位億萬富翁。 但總的來說，創業公司比大多數人擁有更多的權力，因為如果它承擔的責任超過其價值，它可以宣布破產並消失。 就像你說的，有些人成立了個人公司，以將自己與責任分開。 他們通過這樣做讓自己變得更強大。 因此，公民有權知道是誰建立了這個強大的實體，因為它利用了公共資源和結構。

I'm not arguing that every company is inherently evil, simply inherently more powerful. and, of course, there are outliers, such as new startups, like you said. of course a startup won't have as much power as one billionaire. but in general, the startup has more power than most individuals, because if it becomes liable beyond its worth, it can declare bankruptcy and vanish. just like you said, some people form individual corporations to separate themselves from liability. they make themselves more powerful by doing so. and thus, the citizens have a right to know who established that powerful entity, because it leverages public resources and structures.
@pichuchen Taiwan is better than the USA because no guns, but worse because no marijuana 😉 but then better again because boba tea
@caleb you clearly have no idea how the company operates and the laws it needs to abide by. Yes, that includes the privacy laws of its users/customers - and you can sue the hell of a company if you feel at any point they misuse your PII.

So no, it's not like companies are not held liable for wrongdoings.

Now, if you really argue hard about "powerful billionaires" - trust me, if someone wants to hide something, they wouldn't be opening a company in Taiwan in the first place 😉
You sue the *company*, and I wasn't talking about PII, I was talking about liability in general. Which does include PII but I was speaking broadly.
"you clearly have no idea how the company operates and the laws it needs to abide by." i think you might benefit from reading https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html under the "in comments" section, it's a good guide to general online behavior
I stated a fact. Misinformation you spread is also considered a poor online behaviour, do you know that?
Furthermore, I suggest you study company's laws before you post things like "companies are more powerful".
What a bunch of misinformation, only fueling up here the anti-company consensus on this Slack.
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-29 11:41:48
The fact of having limited liability already justifies the argument company more powerful than a natural person. I guess this is what @caleb means?
Yeah, because every company owner, big or small, secretly plans to declare bankruptcy and disappear 🙄
It's good to be anti-company, capitalism is inherently unethical 🙂
S, I'm actually correct companies hold more powerful in a capitalist society than individuals. You say, "study more," but I don't have to - I'm correct, and I've demonstrated why. All you've done is whine about that. If you have a counterargument, state it, don't just pretend you know more than me.
❤️ 1 👍 5 👏 3 🤔 2
chihao 21:56:30
(maybe) comparative study ++
chihao 21:58:58
1️⃣「政府做了民間就不能做」
2️⃣「政府做了民間就不用做」
3️⃣「政府沒做民間就先做」
4️⃣「政府做了民間繼續做」
不一定所有事都一樣, 但若光看"資料", 2. "政府有的資料你不用再釋出" 當成一種"不需要民間"的立論時, 會變成隱性的 1., 變相阻止民間做.

那同樣是阻止的情況下, 1 & 2 換個角度看會變成 "政府可以, 你不行"

言論也是一種資訊的散播, 再換角度看就會變成"政府可以說, 你不能說"

那就會扯到言論自由了
🔢 4 🤯 4
pichuchen 22:00:09
另外日本的法人番號是平成 27 年， 2015 年才開始的，真不知道他們在這之前是怎麼查核公司資料的...
ronnywang 22:00:57
可能類似像美國沒戶籍制度一樣，要靠別的證明文件？
我剛剛還看到日本還有一種叫做「匿名組合」，總之就我在台灣自己也是有開公司來說，我可以確定台灣的公司法以及相關規定相較其他國家有改進空間，然後近幾年來說經濟部也是很正面在配合修改這樣，只是像是到底應不應該表示姓名這件事情，真的沒拿出來討論還沒有認真想過這件事。
難道要開坑寫公司法修正草案了嗎 😏
為什麼需要公開公司代表人姓名？最基本的原因是保障交易安全。交易相對人必須透過公司登記資料，確認「代表公司與之交易的人」有代表權限，交易相對人可以信賴登記資料，如果登記資料沒有公開，就無法簡便地確認是否有代表權限。
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-28 22:25:20
公開公司代表人和監察人也能讓利益衝突更容易被發現
@isabelhou 但是實務上我們也很少真的在交易時確認登記資料上的姓名，舉例來說早餐店的登記姓名我們是幾乎不會查驗的，再來是例如全家等等的可能是加盟店，另外合作窗口也常常不會是董事或是董事長本人，更多的時候是專案經理，那此時我們其實驗證是否有權限的資料往往是對方的名片，因為名片上面有 Logo ，造假的話確實有偽造文書或詐欺的事實，那此時是不是公司代表人姓名就沒有這麼必要了？
並不是。
@chihao 搞不好可以轉 #digital_development
@ycdzeng 確實是這樣，但是這個基本上是在公司結構比較簡單的狀況下是這樣，實際上的話有可能讓比較小的股東來當董事，或者是掛名董事長，然後再由大股東作為實質受益人，所以從幾年前開始就要求公司必須要再做「公司負責人及主要股東申報」來做洗錢防制 （ctp.tdcc.com.tw）

那在這上面的資料目前政策是不對外公開的。
以美國來說各州搜尋公司資訊的方式不一，不過印象中還是要向相關單位正式申請和繳付手續費。以我在紐約的經驗，基本上除了向政府登記時需要提供我的個資，實際上和客戶簽約和交易的時候我只需要提供我的公司名(DBA)和税碼(EIN)。當然對方是否信任我和如何聯絡上我是另一回事。

不過我覺得討論的方向其實有點偏了，政府是否應該(不設門檻)公開公司代表的個資的確滿值得討論，但是這邊的重點應該是作為公開資料的傳播/使用者(data processor)而非搜集資料的政府(data controller)需要負責哪些法律責任？
@naush 我覺得公開資料的傳播應該討論的差不多了，大部分的意見似乎都是認為 @ronnywang 的作法合法，不過 @to 看起來接下來是打算採取法律途徑的樣子，因此可能後面就是在法院上看法官見解了。

但是在台灣政府的案例來說，顯不顯示名字的這件事確實沒有那麼簡單
像是我們知道經濟部商業司是覺得放出負責人姓名是 OK的，但是財政部財資中心覺得不OK https://data.gov.tw/dataset/9400

那依據法務部 10504633830 函，法務部的意思看起來是「你們覺得ＯＫ就ＯＫ，不ＯＫ就不ＯＫ」
所以就說需要專責機構吧
目前的做法似乎是建立在傳播方完全沒有任何法律責任的基礎上，所以個人可以判斷要不要移除個資，但是我覺得可能沒那麼單純？🤔 畢竟我記得歐盟有對data processor訂立特定的法案，尤其是牽扯到個資。不知道台灣這邊會怎麼判斷就是了🤷
@pichuchen 稅籍登記和公司登記是不同的資料。
雖然我們在小規模的交易不會去查核負責人的資料，但是正式合約、公司文件，除了早期公司紙本營登查核以外，通常都還會要大小章

這應該是可以引申公司負責人的姓名，同等於公司資料的一部分，甚至包含負責人的ID

當然現在走無紙，以及法律、社會環境改變，這個有在逐漸變化中。
@joy 這個我可以再分享一下，今天和經濟部那邊通電話的心得。

因為我們家最近變更董監事，所以要做變更登記，然後上面就說可以用工商憑證做純電子送件，不然我們就還要再蓋一張有大小章的紙寄到新北市政府。再不然就要等疫情結束臨櫃辦理，所以我們就選擇純電子送件。

純電子送件回來的東西他就沒有大小章了，那政府的說法是從此我們公司的大小章就不在政府登記的資料裡，一切以工商憑證為主，然後回來的公文是我們自己列印。

那現在自己列印的東西要怎麼驗證真偽呢？所以經濟部有個查驗平台，但是好像沒有申請方式，所以我就直接寄部長信箱去問這件事，所以今天早上他就打電話來和我溝通了。

經濟部的說法是查驗平台主要是像是銀行、投標公家機關、申請台電台水等等需要確認這間公司存在。那在一般民間的狀況來說，大部分的大小章本來就不一定一定要是公司登記的那個章了，原先的法律就是支援用簽名的，只是大家習慣要蓋大小章，但是也不是真的會去查驗那個大章就等於是公司登記的那個大章。

就民法來說，其實如果能夠知道合約上的雙方意思表示一致這樣就夠了。
恩，我也是有申請工商憑證，現在很多電子化作業用這個東東代替了很多簽核，也省下很多事情

而現在申請公司，甚至可以是用自然人憑證做幾乎全線上電子化作業(雖然後續還是有很多地方要跑)

這也是我認為時代和社會演變，負責人與公司的關聯性變化的原因

但回過頭來想，線上公司申請，仍然是以負責人的自然人憑證為唯一的發動依據
"負責人" 與公司法人之間的關聯性，還是非常深，公司的負責人資料，已經並不只是普通自然人資料了
那個狀況應該是因為是自己送件，如果不是自己送件的公司登記那就不一定要用負責人的自然人憑證，我們一開始是我用負責人的按，後來被會計師事務所整個打掉重來，然後他幫我們送上去的。

那至於目前傳統上確實台灣的負責人和公司之間的關係綁很深，經常公司借貸還會需要負責人作為連帶保證人的（會影響聯徵），那實際上也不是只有公司，像是社團法人的理事長也會有特殊待遇，曾耳聞有理事長交接之後新任理事長偷懶沒去改登記，然後前任就一直被國稅局找麻煩。

但是這是小公司的情況，實際上我們想追的應該是大公司之間的交叉關係嘛，舉例來說我們知道東森電視背後的老闆是茂德集團，但是如果你去查茂德建設的董事長就會發現他和東森電視的董事長其實不是同一個人。
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-29 06:10:35
我認為大公司之間的複雜關係更加能顯示現行資料集的效用，如你說的東森：
http://company-graph.g0v.ronny.tw/?id=86121480
有檢調提過，他們會用這個網站調查公司間的關聯。
這幾天的事情有感，其實不只大公司披露股東、負責人對於交叉關係的公開顯示與公共事務有益，就算是中小、微型企業，負責人的公開揭露與方便易查對於中小微企業以及個人之間也是有影響的。

如最近才剛發生的台南某遊戲動漫負責人本身道德及言行造成公司內外的各種風波，這種負責人本身信用、道德的問題，小微企業之間可以查核負責人本身及其過去經營的公司有無狀況，作為是否要合作、交易的參考。

而同樣類似於這間公司所造成的職場、勞工問題，求職者也可以依據負責人過往的紀錄，檢視並評估所要求職的公司未來是否會發生同樣問題的參考。類似求職天眼通的作用。

小、微企業法人與負責人(自然人)之間的界線甚微，負責人的行為可以完全決定法人的模式，而負責人的信譽，某種程度上如商號一樣視為一體。
就像我們在拍賣購物會參考對方賣場過去的評價，負責人的道德、信譽與過往行為是對於一間小型或新設企業體是否可信賴的重要參考依據。
tico88612 22:35:40
@tico88612 has joined the channel
isabelhou 22:46:23

關於使用者<@U02950LRMPD> 昨天在討論串中的言論「Stop acting like a dog and start acting like a human.」我認為已經違反COC，請slack admin處理。

❤️ 6 5
S. 23:02:22
I can clearly see what's the community consensus here. You feel attacked and start picking things out of context.

None of you acknowledged what really went behind the curtains and what exactly led to this situation and why I feel unhappy with the way I've been treated, before I even joined this Slack.
S. 23:03:34
Therefore, feel free to remove me. I can't communicate with someone who fails to acknowledge their fault.
👎 2
S. 23:22:15
Mind you, it's not me who decided to upload my data and then ignore my emails.

So if you take on dealing with someone's PII, take the responsibility too and expect that data removal requests like mine will happen.
S. 23:29:39
“We don't like to be instructed how to do things here” - cool, then don't hold hostage and police someone's personal data.
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-28 23:33:56
This is a twist of my words. You should see that some of us here have more empathy towards your situation than others, however none of us have the authority to tell the actual project owner what to do. It’s fully up to him/herself to make a decision and stand by it.
Tell me something I don't know?
Also, I can give you at least 5 examples here where during my conversation someone took out of context what I said.
yeah there are definitely some miscommunication & language barrier issues here. but @ycdzeng brought up a good point here because ultimately g0v is more like a gathering place for people who likes to hack civic tech stuff together. there’s nothing any one of us can do to help you out, unfortunately. it’s kinda like going to 4chan/anonymous board and demand the community to take responsibility for what one anonymous user did.
“Anonymous” users who feel entitled to process not so anonymous data? What could go wrong, right? 🤔
S. 23:30:33
I would never be here if the author of this project answered my emails in the first place. So now, take responsibility for his (in)actions.
S. 23:31:27
It's easy to act cold when you are in the pack and it's not about your data you don't wish to have publicly copied over random websites, I get that.
S. 23:31:52
#rantover

2021-07-29

S. 00:10:15
Btw *I never mocked anyone's English abilities here* - I challenge you to provide at least one example where I clearly do so.
When I mentioned anything related to language (or English in this regard), I had in mind here Ronny: I was told by another member of this community that Ronny can't express himself using English (Ronny even acknowledged it somewhere here too) and they said this could be perhaps the reason why he never responded to my emails or messages.

And I would certainly buy that excuse if not the fact that Ronny is 30-something and surely if he can use the computer, he can at least reply to my email in Mandarin.

Here is the proof showing that Ronny language abilities were mentioned by another member (redacted the nickname of the person so you guys don't bully them later too):
nah you just suck
i'm genuinely shocked at how polite people here are being to you, but it does align with my experience with taiwan. People here seem to be willing to take the harshest, most arrogant criticism from self-absorbed foreigners like yourself that think they know better, in stride. Remarkable and laudable. You're quite lucky 🙂
You forgot this one:
Nah lol
Why are you still here? Your only recourse now is to sue. nothing here will get done. Are you joining our community now? 🙂
@caleb I think your first comment in this thread is against the community code of conduct https://g0v.hackmd.io/s/COC as in "Any sexually explicit, violent or discriminatory language and/or imagery is inappropriate at any online or offline community event/space", as for now, I don't have enough energy to take this to the admins. But this ought to be noticed.
Thanks Guo-Jim! I'm happy to talk with the admins about it. You and I have met in person, have we not? I'm curious why you didn't DM me directly 🙂 I disagree that it was anything like you said, and I disagree that standing up to bullies is against the COC. Let's talk more about it though!
Oh, you're a book club participant, that's why I recognize you.
I am sorry but calling a person who came here publicly to talk about their data being leaked and abused for months (after being totally ignored by the author) a “bully” is not only misleading but also tasteless.
Crocodile tears
S. 00:18:56
CleanShot 2021-07-29 at 00.13.36@2x.jpg
S. 00:38:48
Things always work like this: Is not my business until it is my business (no pun) :slightly_smiling_face: I get that people here might not understand or feel a need for a change now, but one day when they are in similar circumstances I am finding myself in currently, they will see things differently.
👎 2 1
tkirby 00:59:54
Thank you for trying to communicate with Mandarin earlier, and sorry that there are different voices since this is a community. Back to this case - I think the site's owner Ronny has responded above ( while in Mandarin ), perhaps you can open a dedicated thread by responding to his comment. This is a community so comments by others are not responsible for him and vice versa, thus you probably will want to discuss directly with him, whether he respond or not - and unfortunately we can't force him to respond once he follows g0v's CoC and local government's law.

Actually many people here have their names listed. I even have my full home address been published in those websites so I know how you feel - Indeed we may need some updates in our government's law.

很謝謝很多人提供法律上相關資訊，我這幾天錄完零時小學校的 QGIS 課程後，會想來把這些討論整理成共筆，是很有意義的討論。 我先回覆 <@U02950LRMPD> ，我無法給你時間，也無法保證我會將你的名字從網站上遮蔽，因為我目前還不覺得這是我一定要做的事。 我很認同隱私權的重要性，但我不認為姓名跟身份連結就一定是需要被保護的隱私。舉個例子，立法委員、行政院長的姓名也是個人資料，難道也是只有政府網站可以公告，民間網站提到只要當事人要求就必需將名字去除嗎？立委或官員的姓名可以被大家自由討論連結使用，有他的公共利益價值在，如果只有政府有公布的自由，對公共利益的傷害非常的大。 那問題就會回到，那公司負責人的姓名的公共利益的程度能跟立法委員和政府官員相比嗎？這問題就沒那麼簡單了，郭台銘和路邊飲料店負責人姓名的公共利益性就差很多了。但假如果今天網站提供了飲料店負責人可以申請遮蔽他的姓名，那之後郭台銘的法務也來說要我遮蔽，我要用什麼樣的標準同意飲料店的遮蔽卻否決郭台銘的遮蔽？這邊有幾個選擇： 1. 誰來申請都幫他把資料刪除：這或許是你最認同的方向，就算郭台銘來也一樣有他的權利，但這樣這資料可能就失去很多公共利益性了 2. 我可以審核哪些人資料可以幫他刪除，哪些不刪：如果有夠好的標準我覺得這會是個好方案，但我並不希望這是完全靠我個人的判斷，我沒有資格也沒有能力做這個判斷。 3. 比照現有公司法以及商業司資料公布：這就是我選擇的現況了。 你前面主張政府也有提供這些資料，政府已經有公布了，因此該有的公共利益已經足夠，民間不需要做這些事。這點我並不認同，我當初會做這網站就是因為政府的不夠好用，這也是很多 g0v 的朋友為什麼會想要推動 open data ，我這邊公司資料也幫助了像台電30億敦親睦鄰追追追以及一些 g0v 專案，而這些都是政府本身作不到的。

👍 1 🤔 1
Yio Chou 01:15:05
@yiochou1227 has joined the channel
S. 01:42:37
@tkirby cheers. Did you get your data removed at the end if you don't mind me asking or you also had to deploy your lawyers? 😃

The model that works well for both sides: companies and the general public is when the names of directors/shareholders are in one central place where anyone of interest, can _*request*_ to have this information revealed.

This prevents bad actors from spreading PIIs across the web and abuse them, respecting the privacy of the owners. At the same time, it serves the general public's need for transparency and the ability to view the names if that need ever arises.
> … can _*request*_ to have this information revealed. This prevents bad actors from spreading PIIs across the web and abuse them,
> ... where anyone of interest, can request to have this information revealed.
> This prevents bad actors from spreading PIIs across the web and abuse them, respecting the privacy of the owners.
This idea of making bad actors’s life a bit difficult to do their job seems to me a pretty good initiative as a follow-up on this question @ronneywang brought up for himself. Quote:

> 我很想在 g0v 這邊討論有什麼樣標準可以判斷哪些公司負責人姓名公開有其公共利益不適合遮蔽，哪些公共性較低可以遮蔽，如果有我認為很不錯的方法我會處理公司負責人姓名的遮蔽。
link: https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C02G2SXKX/p1627480060223100

While I cloud only make guesses on the reason @to would want their names to be removed/hidden in the beginning of these conversations, I could agree on this particular statement from them.

That being said... I could also see why @ronnywang (and looks like almost everyone who participated the conversation) would tend to discuss laws/standards/rules rather than just spending 5 minutes and process the case of @to -- It would just take about 500 company-owners to take down @ronnywang entirely, which wouldn’t be so difficult.

OTOH @ronnywang also made a strong case that up until now whoever utilize those dataset seems to hold good intent. Quote:

> 我這邊公司資料也幫助了像台電30億敦親睦鄰追追追以及一些 g0v 專案，而這些都是政府本身作不到的。
link: https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C02G2SXKX/p1627475447172500

If we could find a few cases/evidences of “bad actors” or would be the misuses, that would definitely make the statement stronger. And should be a good news for @to as I’m pretty sure such that the already-public company data is copied multiple time available on multiple websites and they could just reuse the same argument when sending takedown notices.
HS W 07:39:50
@hw11209 has joined the channel
gugod 09:22:57
> ... where anyone of interest, can request to have this information revealed.
> This prevents bad actors from spreading PIIs across the web and abuse them, respecting the privacy of the owners.
This idea of making bad actors’s life a bit difficult to do their job seems to me a pretty good initiative as a follow-up on this question @ronneywang brought up for himself. Quote:

> 我很想在 g0v 這邊討論有什麼樣標準可以判斷哪些公司負責人姓名公開有其公共利益不適合遮蔽，哪些公共性較低可以遮蔽，如果有我認為很不錯的方法我會處理公司負責人姓名的遮蔽。
link: https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C02G2SXKX/p1627480060223100

While I cloud only make guesses on the reason @to would want their names to be removed/hidden in the beginning of these conversations, I could agree on this particular statement from them.

That being said... I could also see why @ronnywang (and looks like almost everyone who participated the conversation) would tend to discuss laws/standards/rules rather than just spending 5 minutes and process the case of @to -- It would just take about 500 company-owners to take down @ronnywang entirely, which wouldn’t be so difficult.

OTOH @ronnywang also made a strong case that up until now whoever utilize those dataset seems to hold good intent. Quote:

> 我這邊公司資料也幫助了像台電30億敦親睦鄰追追追以及一些 g0v 專案，而這些都是政府本身作不到的。
link: https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C02G2SXKX/p1627475447172500

If we could find a few cases/evidences of “bad actors” or would be the misuses, that would definitely make the statement stronger. And should be a good news for @to as I’m pretty sure such that the already-public company data is copied multiple time available on multiple websites and they could just reuse the same argument when sending takedown notices.
👍 1
clkao 09:42:25
re coc. please see this thread. https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C01RDCVDGHZ/p1627489521142200?thread_ts=1627483499.131000&cid=C01RDCVDGHZ

<@U02G2US2Z> appreciate that. I would like to clarify my comments toward that person: That referring to someone to "act like a human, not a dog" - I feel super uncomfortable with the way people turning this case around and attacking me - it's easy to act cold when you are in the pack and anonymous (at least some are) and it's not about their personal data. So I felt like that member is completely out of touch with reality and does not listen, throwing at me empty thoughts without trying to understand the circumstances I am in. <@U021XTAA1AT> apologies for the harsh words, I am sure you are a cool guy and we all have good intentions here. So peace!

S. 09:52:21
@gugod Thanks for giving a healthy look at it.

We can agree that the current model serves only the consensus of the g0v side (transparency) and completely ignores the privacy of people in the dataset.

As much as some people here might disagree to introduce some level of protection and privacy to those in the dataset I _*strongly disagree*_ it's right to have PII of 1000s of people up for abuse smeared over random websites because a bunch of people here wants to play police.

As long as my names appear on any non-official websites, without my consent, I will consider it as abuse.
S. 10:06:51
I am not going to post in public chat the names of the sites that abuse this data, and give them any traffic/exposure.
kingman 10:07:51
這幾天的事情有感，其實不只大公司披露股東、負責人對於交叉關係的公開顯示與公共事務有益，就算是中小、微型企業，負責人的公開揭露與方便易查對於中小微企業以及個人之間也是有影響的。

如最近才剛發生的台南某遊戲動漫負責人本身道德及言行造成公司內外的各種風波，這種負責人本身信用、道德的問題，小微企業之間可以查核負責人本身及其過去經營的公司有無狀況，作為是否要合作、交易的參考。

而同樣類似於這間公司所造成的職場、勞工問題，求職者也可以依據負責人過往的紀錄，檢視並評估所要求職的公司未來是否會發生同樣問題的參考。類似求職天眼通的作用。

小、微企業法人與負責人(自然人)之間的界線甚微，負責人的行為可以完全決定法人的模式，而負責人的信譽，某種程度上如商號一樣視為一體。
就像我們在拍賣購物會參考對方賣場過去的評價，負責人的道德、信譽與過往行為是對於一間小型或新設企業體是否可信賴的重要參考依據。
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clkao 11:00:34
How opencorporates deals with the issue might be of interests. the privacy policy clearly states the why and what, which is probably what g0v projects can learn from. however it also states clearly why they do *not* remove individual data, citing GDPR article 89.

`Note that our legitimate interest in providing a comprehensive and accessible record of information about companies means that we do not give individuals the right to have information about them erased other than as set out below`

https://opencorporates.com/legal/public_records_privacy_policy

here’s the example of the opencorporate’s page on the company it self.

also for the uk house of company, it actually publishes the director’s address along with the name (i am not sure about how detailed the disclosures are for PSCs). and opencorporate requires a login to display the information. while the director names are still publicly accessible, which is a reasonable privacy protection imo.

privacy-regulation.eu

Article 89 EU General Data Protection Regulation (EU-GDPR). Privacy/Privazy according to plan.

Article 89 - Safeguards and derogations relating to processing for archiving purposes in the public interest, scientific or historical research purposes or statistical purposes - EU General Data Protection Regulation (EU-GDPR), Easy readable text of EU GDPR with many hyperlinks.

opencorporates.com

Public Records Privacy Policy :: Info :: OpenCorporates

Free And Open Company Data On Public Records Privacy Policy :: Info

opencorporates.com

OPENCORPORATES HOLDING LTD :: United Kingdom :: OpenCorporates

Free and open company data on United Kingdom company OPENCORPORATES HOLDING LTD (company number 11268479), Aston House Cornwall Avenue, London, N3 1LF

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Carol 17:48:17
@wu.yen08 has joined the channel
a885131 18:01:27
@a885131 has joined the channel
ichieh 18:44:58
這次大松是活動大禮包，有三個松尬一起，大家下週一中午 12:00 記得報名！

【g0v 第肆拾伍次原本在台中黑客松 The best laid plans Online Hackath45n】8/2（一）12:00 開始報名
時間 Time：2021/8/21（六）10:00 - 17:00 GMT+8
地點 Place：透過 KKTIX 報名後寄信提供上線網址
報名 Registration：https://g0v-jothon.kktix.cc/events/g0v-hackath45n
活動資訊（共筆）Info：https://beta.hackfoldr.org/g0v-hackath45n/
活動直播 Live Broadcast：https://www.youtube.com/c/g0vTW/
📌 特別注意！！本次線上會議需要使用電腦／筆電開啟，若使用平板或行動裝置則無需報名，請觀看 g0v Youtube 同步直播，文字參與。

https://www.facebook.com/g0v.tw/photos/a.456791061028852/5929367493771154
Slide 16_9 - 2.png
Gather 直播++ 我也會用個人視角轉播分享到 Gather 社團並註明LIVE中
10 6
Z Maggie 20:35:33
伴伴學第一次國際引導者分享正在進行中，歡迎大家加入喔
Sharing Topic: Accomedmy x MakerGram： Salman shares how to build a Physical Chrome Dino Jump Game
Sharing Content: A physical Chrom Dinosaur Jump game built based on a machine learning platform called Edge Impulse using Wio Terminal as the hardware base
About Mentor: Salman Faris：
ZOOM : https://pse.is/3kx93l

Zoom Video

Join our Cloud HD Video Meeting

Zoom is the leader in modern enterprise video communications, with an easy, reliable cloud platform for video and audio conferencing, chat, and webinars across mobile, desktop, and room systems. Zoom Rooms is the original software-based conference room solution used around the world in board, conference, huddle, and training rooms, as well as executive offices and classrooms. Founded in 2011, Zoom helps businesses and organizations bring their teams together in a frictionless environment to get more done. Zoom is a publicly traded company headquartered in San Jose, CA.

🙌 1 1
Z Maggie 20:36:25
還有在discord上面同步語音口譯喔：https://bit.ly/2VjlHkQ

Discord

Join the 伴伴學 Accomdemy Discord Server!

Check out the 伴伴學 Accomdemy community on Discord - hang out with 87 other members and enjoy free voice and text chat.

paul.bjhsu 2021-07-29 20:45:12
同步口譯 猛
真的猛
同步伴伴讚讚
🙌 3 3 3
mglee 22:43:41
同意是個重要需要記錄的對話，尤其是對社群未來處理各種開放資料及removal request，logbot 好像掛了？有人正在把對話存到hackmd嗎？

我們也需要思考極端一點的狀況，例如：由政府公開但不好存取的公共資料若含有個資>>被 g0v 爬下來做成更容易應用的 API>>除了公益性質的應用外，該API也被拿去用在非公益且對當事人有巨大傷害的應用上 (比如色情、暴力、假訊息)，g0v 作為資料的中介者 (讓資料變得容易存取的角色)，有 (a) 法律責任嗎 (b) 道德責任嗎？
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clkao 23:09:12
So, what would it involve if a g0v project is to set up a potential PII take-down process? (not specifically for company data, but also like cofacts, campaign finance, congress video archives, etc)

• legitimacy of take-down: a trusted (by the community and the public) entity will need to process the requestor’s identity, claims, according to the project’s policy.
• a transparency mechanism for the take-down histories, like some of the dmca transparency disclosures by many content sites.
difficulties
• staffing of the above mechanism.
• paradox of the additional PII required to remove PII, and the efforts to protect the additional PII during the communications
• since g0v projects are open source, not just hosting processed data - that is, the scrapers are available to public. anyone can still reproduce the vanilla results. if the take-down needs to happen in data-pipeline level, we’ll need a registry for the take-down records, which would be another place to store more PII.
past experiences
• cofacts seems to have some practice
• the congress video archive project had a takedown request from the source (the congress), because one congress member put some underage faces (or something that’s not meant to be broadcasted) in a video clip during presentation. it’s more like a correction request, as the upstream eradicated part of the video clip and wants downstream to republish the latest version.

cofacts/takedowns

這裡會放 Cofacts 管理團隊接獲申訴後，手動修改資料庫，修改訊息、回應等的處理結果。

For clarification, g0v is a polycentric community, i think every project owner and contributors have to develop their own policy and be responsible for the decision made accordingly. However, g0v.tw needs a policy and projects using g0v.tw domain shall follow the policy besides the projects’ policy.
@clkao appreciate the initiative - it's a much-needed change in a better direction. Also thinking about ongoing PII collecting/processing that meets both - transparency and privacy principles:

Pseudonymization of PII seems like a good solution - the public can still enjoy all the data queries and make connections between companies/individuals without passively revealing their names. The actual name can be looked up when such a need arises, safeguarding it from bad actors, abuse, and careless handling down the stream.

Also, a place to educate people who take on projects here to design/build things with privacy principles in mind is where we can all have a real impact.
Perhaps a section with materials on the official website?
Quentin Brasseur 2021-07-30 02:03:14
+1 on education material and initiative. Personal data processing is not an easy topic - I even think it should be included in the program at schools 😅

I agree with @isabelhou - it is the project's owner responsibility to comply with laws. At best, there could be another g0v project that could brainstorm and offer resources to help other gov'ers in their projects? I wouldn't start this project myself but happy to contribute and share thoughts if it's useful :)

PDPA isn't the GDPR but the GDPR could be a source of inspiration and good practices (also, GDPR may be applicable to TW companies in some cases) and https://noyb.eu/en could be an interesting resource. This movement was created by Schrems, who won cases against Facebook. They work on data privacy enforcement. A mailing list updates on the latest fines issued by data authorities in Europe... the perfect examples to understand what is "touchy" :)
Cofacts 的脈絡是這樣的
1. 2020 年一月有盜版影片在 Cofacts 上流傳
2. Cofacts 信箱收到來自中國維權公司的信件，隨信附上營業執照與版權方律師函
3. Cofacts 製作 cofacts/takedowns、公告來信但遮除個人聯絡資訊（原信有署名與電話，但公告時刪除，留下公司名稱）
4. Cofacts 遮除文章裡面的侵權連結，但保留原文。
Cofacts 工作小組（Cofacts WG）也有處理過更隱私的訊息流出到 LINE 的狀況。因為真的是不具公眾利益的私密訊息，所以我們在盡可能少的人看到的狀況下就以全篇遮除的方式處理，也不會透露是誰回報的。

另外，Cofacts WG 也有收過一些來自執法機關要求特定訊息下架的 request。我們評估之後認為把訊息留著，反而更有助於澄清，而從熱門程度也可以判斷，就算下架該訊息，也會有人再回報一則一樣的，所以並沒有對資料庫做更動。在我們回信說明清楚之後，執法機關回覆表示理解，也比較少來信了。

最後，我個人認為 Cofacts 與台灣公司資料專案性質差異甚大，*在 Cofacts 專案的決策，並不代表台灣公司資料專案就應該跟進*。Cofacts 上的訊息與回應，都是使用者所回報，與台灣公司資料直接使用政府開放資料、增加相關資訊的近用性，有著本質上的不同。Cofacts 上的資訊是從私領域（LINE 聊天群組）回報的訊息，故個別的訊息是否具有公眾利益，確實有個案探討的空間。
🤔 6 🙌 4 3
Mar Marín 23:54:56
Hey @aquí! *LAST CALL!* – 🚨3️⃣ days left to submit your proposal to host a 🗣️Panel, ⚡Lighting Talk and/or 🔧 Workshop at the #CfAllSummit21:globe_with_meridians:.

:bulb: This year’s Summit will focus on Open vs. Closed Tech in Government, Democracy & Elections, Disinformation & Fake News and Power Dynamics in Tech.

:alarm_clock: Submit it here → bit.ly/CfAll21-CFP
🔎 More on themes and formats → bit.ly/CfAll_CFP21
CfAllSummit Last CALL!.gif
❤️ 1 🦒 1

2021-07-30

Guo-Jim 05:01:02
開了記錄請求個資刪除聊天室紀錄的共筆，目前記錄到 2021.07.27 10:56 PM https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C02G2SXKX/p1627397788471900

<@U02981VMEP7> has joined the channel

6 👍 7 🙌 5
Guo-Jim 05:02:02
共筆連結
https://g0v.hackmd.io/D9M2zAJJRqW_1qYZDmRKAA?both

g0v.hackmd.io

2021.07 個資刪除請求紀錄 - HackMD

The discussion has exceeded the limit of hackmd ._.
@yukai
Guo-Jim 05:03:50
然後還有 #g0v-slack 頻道 的討論還沒記錄
Guo-Jim 08:58:11
大家來幫忙複製貼上，還有不少
johnshao1990 09:53:35
我把#general 剩下的都複製貼上了(應該沒有漏吧?!
6
mrorz 11:03:45
Cofacts 的脈絡是這樣的
1. 2020 年一月有盜版影片在 Cofacts 上流傳
2. Cofacts 信箱收到來自中國維權公司的信件，隨信附上營業執照與版權方律師函
3. Cofacts 製作 cofacts/takedowns、公告來信但遮除個人聯絡資訊（原信有署名與電話，但公告時刪除，留下公司名稱）
4. Cofacts 遮除文章裡面的侵權連結，但保留原文。
Cofacts 工作小組（Cofacts WG）也有處理過更隱私的訊息流出到 LINE 的狀況。因為真的是不具公眾利益的私密訊息，所以我們在盡可能少的人看到的狀況下就以全篇遮除的方式處理，也不會透露是誰回報的。

另外，Cofacts WG 也有收過一些來自執法機關要求特定訊息下架的 request。我們評估之後認為把訊息留著，反而更有助於澄清，而從熱門程度也可以判斷，就算下架該訊息，也會有人再回報一則一樣的，所以並沒有對資料庫做更動。在我們回信說明清楚之後，執法機關回覆表示理解，也比較少來信了。

最後，我個人認為 Cofacts 與台灣公司資料專案性質差異甚大，*在 Cofacts 專案的決策，並不代表台灣公司資料專案就應該跟進*。Cofacts 上的訊息與回應，都是使用者所回報，與台灣公司資料直接使用政府開放資料、增加相關資訊的近用性，有著本質上的不同。Cofacts 上的資訊是從私領域（LINE 聊天群組）回報的訊息，故個別的訊息是否具有公眾利益，確實有個案探討的空間。
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bil 11:59:08
Some supplemental information, those taken down information were recorded in Cofacts database owing to “another individual”(third party) sent one to Cofacts. For instance, someone disclosed private messages intimately , I don’t think it is the same condition to a government public information or other crawling projects.
🙌 3 1
Joshua Kase 12:10:28
@kasejg has joined the channel
S. 12:22:54

Just wanted to point out that <@U01BXL1NYCR>'s "Nah you just suck" &amp; "Why are you still here?" violates the CoC. I find it counterintuitive and disrespectful to the community that after a member is asked to issue an official apology for the things they said and they do so, another member still continues to mock them with screenshots of messages they made in the past and already apologize for. Replying "nah you just suck" under someone's official reply to false accusations other members directed at them earlier, indicates not everyone here tries to find a common language. Also, the "Why are you still here?" and similar remarks might suggest that members in this community have an inclination towards deterring others or even silencing them if they don't meet their believes or values, instead of trying to befriend or at least - understand them, especially during distress.

bess 13:07:55
\ 零時小學校 Demo Day 2021-22 開放提案啦 / #edu
https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/CN64A1FHA/p1627621560001800

磨了一陣子的「零時小學校 2021-22 Demo Day」終於登場了！ 歡迎帶著你的提案來參加，跟社群一起邊學邊做吧，有機會的話，就可以登上明年一月的 Demo Day 舞台！ 還請大家多多轉貼分享，非常感謝。 -- 「零時小學校 2021-22 Demo Day」08.01-09.28 開放提案，帶著你的創新解決方案，跟社群一起協作吧！ *開源，開放，教育從自己開始* 為鼓勵開源專案發展，並推廣「開源」與「協作」概念，只要你對「零時小學校 2021-22 Demo Day」徵件主題有興趣，無論是否為學生或教職員，都可以試著在 2021-22 年提案頁面提出你的想法，讓想像變成可能！ *徵件主題* • COVID-19 新解方 • 遠距教學解決方案 • 社群經營與基礎建設 • 教育內容 • 其他 `#自由發揮` *獎勵內容* 零時小學校 2021-22 年 Demo Day 將選出 5 組獲獎團隊 + 1 組 U-22 組獲獎團隊。 • 獎狀：獲獎團隊將獲頒「零時小學校 2021-22 年 Demo Day」獎狀乙張。 • 專案培力：獲獎團隊將成為零時小學校重點培力團隊，g0v 揪松團將協助引介合適導師與資源，陪伴獲獎團隊持續發展與成長，並將在 2022 年出版成果手冊，刊出團隊故事。 • 開源成果：專案成果將開源並收錄於零時小學校成果網站，成為零時小學校「獲獎校友」。 *重要時程* • 8/1 線上公開提案開始 • 8/14 零時小學校夏日黑客松 • 9/28 提案上傳截止 • 10/16 零時小學校提案工作坊（暫定） • 11/1 提案修改截止 • 11/2-12/31 評選期間 • 2021/1 Sch001 Demo Day 2021-22（暫定） *馬上提案* • 提案細則：<https://sch001.g0v.tw/means/> • 提案頁面：<https://sch001.g0v.tw/dash/brd/sch001-2021/list> *致謝* 零時小學校感謝「啟蒙者夥伴」聯合報系願景工程、財團法人新竹縣晨星半導體慈善基金會，「源力夥伴」國立臺南女子高級中學、崑山科技大學、國立竹北高級中學、臺中市立臺中女子高級中學，以及社群夥伴的支持。

3
isabelhou 13:51:29

First of all - I want to say "I am sorry" to those who feel uncomfortable with me bringing this issue to the public in <#C02G2SXKX|general> or if someone felt personally offended. I did not mean to cause havoc here. I am coming with *good intentions* and for a good cause that is not just about me, but about anyone who might ever find themselves in a similar situation, regardless of where you come from or where you currently live. I was patient with my explanations and I tried to be clear about the reasons behind it. Yet, I can't help but notice that some people still trying to give me a hard time and I feel it's important to clarify it. 1) I was bullied by few members of the community that together, in constant consensus, silence the opinions of others to achieve their way, where I try to seek solutions that satisfy *BOTH* sides, not just one side, and I have been constantly articulating it. 2) I didn't call anyone a dog, I asked them to stop acting like one, and I asked them to act more like human during distress, when I am being attacked for my values, in a foreign to me community. Context matters and this is a *big difference*. To those who accuse me: please see two sides of the story, not just mention what is comfortable for you to see and take things out of the context. Yes, that's also a message to you <@U02TNG5TP> - I clearly stated in private conversation with you that I am coming here with good intentions and want to end this case in a peaceful manner. I wished you could acknowledge this, not just put me in a bad light with a message taken out of the context. Only very few people in this community know the entire story - probably just <@U038DCDRC> and anyone, who has been neutral enough to read between the lines, starting from my initial post. I think the conversation went too far about me being bad for not wanting my names to be displayed on government websites at all and the fact that the data won't be correct anymore if we start deleting records. Where all I wanted is that my names are not plastered over the web on random non-government websites, and up for abuse. Its not just about me - it could be your kids, friends or anyone else. Also, thank you to those who actually listened and cared enough, including <@U02G2US2Z> who apologized to me for this entire situation in a private conversation - I know you did not have to but it does mean a lot to me.

哎，我們盡量不要用 拇指向下啦。雖然我請 g0v-slack admin處理違反 CoC的行為，但我同時也認為 @to 提出了很好的問題，後續的討論非常棒（雖然也吵得很兇ＸＤ）
後續希望『有人』能開一個hackmd 來討論 g0v.tw 的相關處理流程和可能的方法，然後在八月大松提案討論。
如果沒有人……
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-30 16:37:27
覺得需要一個"不同意"的表符
可是我個人並不覺得這是一個我可以接受的道歉。

人家應該是要徹底了解他在那方面用的話是傷人的，而且承諾不會再次發生。我在他的道歉裡面完全沒有看到這種反省，而是“不好意思，我帶了一個重要話題來然後我被攻擊。你們不理解我的立場“。他連違反 CoC 都不承認，怎麼把這個當成一個能夠接受的道歉呢？

我只能代表我自己說：我不覺得他違反 CoC 這個問題已解決。我也不接受這個道歉。
我在這方面可能有興趣，但是不知道有沒有到願意跳坑的程度... 😂

https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C02G2SXKX/p1627631494038900?thread_ts=1627624289.032000&cid=C02G2SXKX
我感覺有很多人站在坑邊觀望，現在就是不知道誰會（被）跳下去。
Kjcl 確切地。 我仍然感到驚訝的是，每個人都對這個問題如此有禮貌和體貼。 即使他的問題是合法的，他也表現得像個惡霸。 他的道歉是有毒的和虛假的。 通常我會過早地得出結論，但我認為每個人都給予了那個人比他應得的更多的信任。
如果像這樣的人像武器一樣使用受害，它會傷害真正的受害者。 我將在此消息中包含英語，因為我認為它翻譯得不好。
if people like that use victimization like a weapon, it hurts true victims. I'll include the English for this message because I think it'll translate poorly.
我也覺得大家真的很有禮貌、體貼以及為他人著想。
我覺得@caleb 的中文進步神速。
老實說，我也覺得我在這個社群得到應得更多的信任。喜歡很有禮貌、體貼以為為他人著想的大家，以及雖然可能有不同意見，但堅持尊重Ronny的堅持的大家。
叫別人「停止狗一般的行為」不是說別人是狗⋯嗎？真心不懂⋯
沒有人的耐心是有極限的（？）
另外，我覺得這裡並沒有被 cause havoc 啊 XD 不時出現了很多有意義的討論嗎？
@to
1. I don't think in the g0v community, specifically in the issue you brought here, there was anyone trying to `silence the opinions of others`. Please evidence it. Besides, many people disagreed with you for their own reasons, why did you see it as community members bullying you together?
2. What did you mean by "`I didn't call anyone a dog, I asked them to stop acting like one`"? You clearly do not understand what CoC is: it has nothing to do with dogs. You offended someone regardless of what your intention or purpose was.
3. You gotta use other examples: your name, office address and phone number - as many people have pointed out - are attached to the _company_, not your privacy. I certainly don't want any private information of mine, my family or anyone else being revealed publicly, but this is _not_ the case here.
4. Since you have mentioned it explicitly, I also encourage you to post your PMs between others after having both sides' consent, otherwise we don't really get the full context you meant.
我是能體會、理解他帶著怨氣而來，當自己很重視的事情長時間被忽略、漠視，心情上一定是不愉快的，後續處理上也會帶有火氣，這是人性。難免的，當然行為與口氣上就會有各種好鬥的表現與攻擊性的行為。
但是就如他所說的，英文不好可以用Google翻譯看英文信，但是以我來說，當我的信箱都是正體中文，偶爾的英文信有90%以上都是垃圾信，信件閱讀、視覺上當然會自動忽略，當然簡體中文的信件將近100%都是SPAM & Virus.

且他一直強調個人隱私有多麼的遭受危害，又說他不想提供那些正在使用他的個資傷害他的地方，不想給他們流量與曝光，這我也能理解這種心情，但是這種狀況我也無法理解他所說的危害。

尤其當他所提到的其他例子都是相關非因果或者關聯錯置，會更難讓我理解他所說的危害型態。

認真說，我也是個人公司的負責人，我與我身邊朋友的公司資料和姓名，甚至聯絡電話、Email、地址都是公開狀態，我非常想知道這會有多大的危害，我也會擔心。

但我真的無法理解他所說的危害...
我也是無法，所以在另一串問他可能會有什麼危害 ._.
至於對方列出來的東西⋯我還在想 XD
@isabelhou 我的中文不是進步，是Google translate的進步。加油Google！
@to I don’t support pseudomisation. As for log-in, it takes a lot of efforts to do that and that will need contributors other than Ronny.
Maybe @to can propose  a counter solution based on Ronny’s and tag Ronny. This will help to develop and conclude the action items and what should be changed to the system.
1 👎 4 1
bess 13:54:03
set the channel topic: 下次大松 8/21 在線上 | 防疫協作請至 #covid19 | 注意：這裡有公開紀錄，請留意個資安全 | 自己邀請自己 https://join.g0v.tw/ | 新加入看教學 http://bit.ly/g0vGuide | 與 Libera.chat #g0v-general 同步中
twjchen11 13:54:49
@twjchen11 has joined the channel
Jeff C 16:11:00
@yutingc has joined the channel
singing 17:37:47
來推薦一場明日 COSCUP 的客語議程，歡迎有興趣的夥伴明日早起來聽聽：客家如何面對數位化的公共傳播及資料的開放性

多元的語言文化一向是臺灣自豪之處！在 g0v 社群中也催生了不少跟語言相關的專案，如萌典、阿美語萌典、itaigi、ChhoeTaigi ...等等。
而從客家聲音媒體到數位資訊傳播的開放，開源圈的社群能幫些什麼忙呢？
有興趣的朋友請來 COSCUP 的主議程軌參與 客傳會x臺灣維基x OCF 共推COSCUP 史上第一場客語演說： https://coscup.org/2021/zh-TW/session/GFVPUY
錯過了嗚嗚嗚 早知道事前傳給客家社的人的
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ronnywang 19:56:52
@to. 我有一個提案作法，想確認你是否可以接受。

你說有許多網站利用我的 API 建網站放廣告，目前雖然無法確定，但是我也不否認有這種可能性。（不過更準確的說，假如那些網站真的用我的資料，他們用的應該不是 API ，而是匯出檔）

假如那些網站真的用我的匯出檔的話，一旦我停止提供檔案，那你的個資就會永遠停留在那些網站上面了。

我可以做的事是把匯出檔裡面人名的部份改成去識別化（Ex: 王向榮 => 王O榮、Ronny Wang => R____g …)，假如那些網站是用我資料並保持更新的話，就會直接替換成去識別化版本（我有想過換成 ANNO001 的方式，但是假如外面那些網站發現我這樣改的話，可能會停止更新姓名部份，那你的名字就還會繼續在那些網站上）

company.g0v.ronny.tw 仍然不會做任何變動，繼續顯示原來的完整姓名，API 也不會改變（那些你不喜歡的廣告網站應該不是用 API 而是用匯出檔），這樣才能讓 company.g0v.ronny.tw 繼續有他原先的功用。

但我認為原始資料的姓名也還是有很重要的公共利益，因此我會提供另外一個大家可以申請下載匯出檔的機制，需要符合以下條件的人才能來申請有原來姓名的匯出檔：
1. 要公開使用匯出檔的目的是什麼
2. 如果是拿來做成公開服務的話，需要保證會定期更新資料到最新資料
3. 成果需要開源
4. 以上資訊（使用目的，公開服務或是報告位置，成果，下載記錄… ）我都會公開
細節的話也想跟大家多多討論，包括怎麼做姓名的去識別化，申請原始匯出檔要有的條件有哪些，怎麼避免漏洞
Can someone translate to English? My Mandarin fails at some parts 😅
@to I would find my own translator if I were you
Okay, I tried with available resources here to try to translate some parts to make sense of it. Let me be based on what I translated and what I investigated initially before.

When you say "API" I am not sure which part of your service you are referring to exactly - so bear that in mind, however, I would like to point out that currently, one way of scraping your website (there are multiple) by anyone is by simply accessing this URL:

`https://company.g0v.ronny.tw/id/[COMPANYID]`

Now, this is one way to scrape your data and I don't know exactly is _*this*_ the exact way those websites utilize it. What I do know for sure is that anyone who is determined enough can use this way to scrape it. So my first question would be - is this the part and endpoint you are referring to? And do you plan to safeguard this endpoint?
safeguard against what exactly?
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-30 21:16:47
I suppose he is mainly considering controlling access to the full dataset here:
http://ronnywang-twcompany.s3-website-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/index.html
@chihao I just edited and clarified what I meant.
and why is bot/cyborg/human obtaining your name and your company name a bad thing?
if you're not just upset about API access, but about scraping too, can't these scrapers just scrape the government website too?
@chihao & others (including those who did not follow earlier)

*The problem:*
Currently, the PII can be accessed and downloaded via various endpoints/methods. Easy access = more ways for others to scrape, including bad actors.

*The solution:*
The bad actors are those we focus here on, but we don't have a way to distinguish/verify who has good intentions or who has bad intentions.
For that reason, we need to seek a method where we can provide the dataset without passively revealing PII - this is the foundation here.

The easiest way to achieve it would be through _*pseudonymization*_ and in this case,
pseudonymization not just the export functionality, but any endpoint/method.

So why mask it across every endpoint/method? I see it counterintuitive if you pseudonymize only one part of the service (I understand from the translation you mean here the "export" function) but leave multiple other ways where the PII data still can be accessed - including the endpoint I just mentioned now.

Now, before I get avalanched with thumbs down by all "open all the things!" & "corporates are evil" advocates here :D - pseudonymization of every endpoint *DOES NOT* mean that you can't run big data queries where you can do graphs and make connections between companies or even specific individuals. It would just mean that you can't expose this data _*passively*_ in a programmatic or manual way.

What is left up for discussion/tinkering is the mechanism of how and when a person could request/access the data with revealed names - which is what most of the members here vouch for.
@kevinliao pardon for tagging you - please see above. Also, I am not upset about "API access", I am trying to find a way that gives people the transparency they want but also protects the PII from unnecessary abuse.
feel free to tag me anywhere. i asked you not to contact me via DMs because I want to discuss things in the open with other community members, and I don't appreciate you posting private DM threads you've had with other community members publicly without their consent.
Yes, I agree you could still go to gov website if you wanted to but:
A) fewer possibilities/websites to access data = less data abuse
B) I assume (I could be wrong) the websites that run ads won't be very hurt by not having the names of the owners, so not that suddenly they will resort to finding ways to scrape official gov websites.
@kevinliao cool - I did that to defend myself from accusations you left personally on me that I tarnish someone's English abilities - that was never a case. Plus I did redacted their nicknames.
Now, back to the topic, shall we? 🙂
@to 我還是不太懂～ 如果你怕的是爬蟲的話，那爬蟲抓 ronny 網站的資料跟抓官網的資料的差別到底在哪裡。
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-30 21:59:27
@to Let me provide you with one use case, which may serve to justify the "when" and "how" to reveal real name - pseudonym connection would be "anytime" and "no restriction"

Say I read in the press that someone with name XXX is initiating investments in sector X. I wish to see how involved is XXX actually in the business, therefore I wish to know a list of all companies XXX is holding. After reviewing this list of companies and their board members, I start to wonder how many of these were his/her family members or were professional executives with big names in sector X, but all I can see is a list of psuedonyms. Deadend.

Therefore I hope company.g0v does not adopt your proposed solution.
@ycdzeng one solution would be to simply be logged in to see it. It's not a fool-proof solution of course, but much better than passively expose it for search engines and crawlers to scrape.
Well, I can't help when you want to find someone by their name. But you still have LinkedIn where every serious business owner has account.
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-30 22:08:56
Are we seriously talking about embracing Linkedin rather than a easy access to commercial registry as the means for a concerned citizen to verify some facts disclosed lawfully? With the suggestion from a privacy-oriented person?
I stated LinkedIn as an alternative - you may want to use it or not. Also, I am sure you know how to access websites in anonymous ways if you don't want to be revealed.
So essentially “Why is it bad? Because there are bad people.” Who are these bad people? What can they do with your name and your company name?
OK, long evening for me again xD

There are many reasons, a person - and here I would like to highlight - *anyone*, _*regardless*_ of whether this is an owner of a company or natural person, might want to limit disclosure of PIIs
• to prevent data abuse/misuse/misinterpretation - an avalanche of examples here including data selling, credit card fraud, deep fakes, revenge porn etc.
• if, due to the nature of your profession - some jobs/positions require more security than others, you want to be more private online
• if you have had your personal accounts hacked or security compromise
• if someone is harassing you online and you want to limit their view of your profile or ability to find/contact you
• If you have been a victim of blackmail
• some extreme cases (but do happen more often than you think): when someone's personal safety is at risk, eg. witnesses of murders and perpetrators being still free.
我當然理解隱私資訊漏出的風險，但是我想理解的是你的名字跟你的公司這個關係在一個三方網站上對你來說是什麼明確的隱私風險？（要記得的是該資訊也存在政府官網隨便給大家爬。）
Also I feel this is also something important when we are talking about potential solutions here and contributes to rejection of some ideas.

I see contradiction of values some members here stand for - specifically, the radical transparency you try to advocate:

1. Radical transparency is also answering to important emails when someone inquiry about their PII being used. If you don't answer them, the transparency is lost.
2. You reject an idea that the side requesting for data would need to be logged in or identify themselves - why wouldn't want to be identified
? Isn't identifying yourself a way of being transparent with others too? Some countries require anyone who requests for PII to identify themselves and I think that's a fair exchange.

Bottom line: Transparency goes both ways, not one. You want the transparency for yourself, but you don't try/wish to be transparent when not convenient or when your identity is at stake.
I know you think you’re making a point but you’re really not…
我認同透明是雙向的這一段
這可以在以下兩點見到：
1. "台灣v.s中國：脆弱的民主"這部紀錄片中唐鳳被拍攝時的雙向拍攝紀錄行為
2.疫調輔助平台會紀錄個資調用，個人也可以查詢誰調用過得紀錄。

另外社交距離APP承諾的開源、以及為何要開源，也是類似的概念吧。

"台灣v.s中國：脆弱的民主"
http://viewpoint.pts.org.tw/ptsdoc_video/%E5%8F%B0%E7%81%A3vs%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B%EF%BC%9A%E8%84%86%E5%BC%B1%E7%9A%84%E6%B0%91%E4%B8%BB/
@joy not everyone here advocates for both-side transparency.
@to not everyone here agrees with your characterization of this situation as “both-ways transparency”
@chihao you can disagree. But currently, this transparency works in your favor, to your convenience. And this is one of the obstacles to achieve solution. Reevaluate.
我覺得現狀已經是 「Solution」啊...
And what is one of the obstacles to achieve what solution? Argue better.
@chihao "Argue better" said someone who didn't reevaluate and still has the ball in his court. Try harder.
@ronnywang thought bullet points as action items will work better:

• *firewall* with `http.user_agent` and similar rules to weed out most of the dumb bots (I can send you a list of rules I use myself)
• *rate limit hits on critical endpoints* at `/id/` so that even request passes the firewall, you limit the ability to do lots of requests in a short time
• *pseudonymization* across the entire system, not just the "export" part
Still up for discussion/finding middle ground (the radical transparency you all seek for, including me):
• _*login part to see clean PII*_
• _*request to download clean PII is per-case as you proposed*_ - however, I have doubts whether asking someone the purpose is important. Anyone could say anything or lie about the purpose. So having some sort of identification of who they are and keeping the record of the request. This should make bad actors thinking twice about whether they really want this data.
Would love to hear your input Ronny.
@kevinliao have you ever thought of putting the "thumbs down" emoji as your avatar? Could save you a lot of clicking.
@to what ball? maybe you also need better metaphors 😔
@chihao it's an idiom, not a metaphor. "ball in your court" basically means it's now your turn / its up to you / expecting your turn now. I was referencing here that I did not hear any contra arguments from you regarding the solution I proposed and the definition of radical transparency a lot of people here seek for.
@chihao it's an idiom, not a metaphor. "ball in your court" means it's now your turn / its up to you / expecting your turn now. I was referencing here that I did not hear any contra arguments from you regarding the solution I proposed and the definition of radical transparency a lot of people here seek and what it means to me.
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-31 15:27:12
Adding a login / identification mechanism will actually cause company.g0v to collect and process more PII then it is doing now.
@ycdzeng PII that is not passively exposed, unlike company data is. Or are you questioning here the ability of g0v to store securely your personal data and exercise your privacy rights in the right manner?
Yi-Chung Dzeng 2021-07-31 15:35:41
In my metric the liability of the project actually increases by adopting a login/identification mechanism for
1. Its current “passive expose” of data that is publicly displayed brings no legal responsibilities
2. The (legal) responsibility of company.g0v to securely save the personal identification / login credential is generated
@to To me it’s quite entertaining to watch your repeated display of your obsession about ronny “not replying to your email” and now justifying your entitlement by the name of “radical transparency” when it’s not about that.

To follow your ball metaphor, I am not on that court with you and this is not a 1-on-1 tennis match or whatever. Your framework of understanding this situation is off. This is a community space and people are a reading, thinking, walking away, and coming back all the time. This discussion is not the Wimbledon and many of us are watching the Olympic games now. Everyone has their own priorities.
@to 而反而可能是這個議題已經討論到一個參與者覺得不必繼續聊下去的地步了～ 我們都有自己的坑要管理。沒時間跟你在這裡沒完沒了～ 可是你真的覺得你跟我們在這個公開頻道計較會影響到該坑主怎麼處理他的網站的話，當然很歡迎你繼續吵鬧，但是身為一個創業的老闆，你一定理解把注意力集中在你的目標上的意思吧～
Do you know what's unhealthy? Your obsession with witch-hunting and framing me being the bad guy, failing to see the full story, even now when I try to seek the dialogue and have a healthy conversation.

Let me clarify something you continue to fail to understand: from the very beginning, I was very protective of Ronny, his project, and this community.

Despite having multiple failed contact attempts to Ronny for over a month at that time, initially, when I joined this community here on Slack, I didn't go rant directly at #general

Instead, one more time, I sent Ronny a private message. I did not want his project to get some bad/unnecessary exposure or the fact that he was ignoring me. Only when he didn't respond to my direct messages, I decided to go public.

I never wanted this to go public, I hoped from the very beginning and tried my best to sort it out with Ronny only. Not because I want to hide something, but because I am a maker just like Ronny and I can put myself into his shoes: I genuinely care about his reputation and this project.

So if you continue to act like this, then you are better off watching your Olympics.
@chihao Do you know what's unhealthy? Your obsession with witch-hunting and framing me being the bad guy, failing to see the full story, even now when I try to seek the dialogue and have a healthy conversation.

Let me clarify something you continue to fail to understand: from the very beginning, I was very protective of Ronny, his project, and this community.

Despite having multiple failed contact attempts to Ronny for over a month at that time, initially, when I joined this community here on Slack, I didn't go rant directly at #general

Instead, one more time, I sent Ronny a private message. I did not want his project to get some bad/unnecessary exposure or the fact that he was ignoring me. Only when he didn't respond to my direct messages, I decided to go public.

I never wanted this to go public, I hoped from the very beginning and tried my best to sort it out with Ronny only. Not because I want to hide something, but because I am a maker just like Ronny and I can put myself into his shoes: I genuinely care about his reputation and this project.

So if you continue to act like this, then you are better off watching your Olympics.
Back to the original proposal and the follow-up request to pseudonymizing all the endpoints, I think Ronny’s original proposal is a good starting point.

Since no one nows what channel do so called bad-actors use, it looks sensible to me to start with one channel and observe if there is any change afterwards.

Starting with data exports first with most of the original site function intact should also limit the change scope required at this stage, which is good for Ronny or any contributor that wants to send pull-requests to make the change happen.
Back from #g0v-slack… @mrorz’s point is pragmatic! ++ But… I believe company name + name of company head (負責人, whatever the translation) is and should remain open data. After re-evaluation I think the good outweighs the bad.
Two things to add…
1. It might be beneficial for this discussion to open a hackmd to (perhaps) list out the pros and cons?
2. This project is ronny’s project and he has the final say (according to g0v’s Manifesto and rough consensus). As a fellow g0v contributor, I’m thinking about forking this project as it is to provide an alternative.
@ronnywang quick question: what if I apply for the full dataset according to the new rules that you proposed, and state that the purpose is to "rebuild the original company.g0v.ronny.tw service that was fully transparent"? Would you give me the data? How would you evaluate such an application?

@ronnywang 問個問題：如果我依照你提議的新機制申請有原來姓名的匯出檔，並且在申請目的說「我想要重建原本有完整資料的 company.g0v.ronny.tw 服務」，你會給我資料嗎？你會怎麼樣處理像這樣的申請？
我還是覺得「公司名稱 + 負責人名」應該維持完整公開，所以支持 ronny 給資料 XD
@pm5 你指的完整服務是包括提供「負責人完整姓名＋公司名稱」的匯出檔？
@chihao 但廣告網站可以這麼容易取得完整資料讓我覺得不愉快。所以我支持Ronny限制廣告網站打包帶走ＸＤ
如果是提供匯出檔給任何第三人的話，那就不用重建服務了，可以直接說目的是「把匯出檔放在網站上給任何人下載」
我覺得這問題可以再往前推，我駁回資料申請的標準是什麼？還是只要申請跟公開就給？如果申請理由寫「我想要把資料做成網站加廣告賺錢」，這是一個要駁回的申請嗎
就是要問這個呀
如果資料檔有改動, 然後
• 某公務員誤以為是完整資料下載去用
• 又剛好用到有 patch 的部份造成文書誤登
• 剛好又影響到某些程序的申請造成某些條件原本不應通過而通過
是否會有偽造文書的問題
偽造公文書要故意且明知。
我覺得如果不是應用層面, 保證資料的完整 / 權威性其實蠻重要的, 所以會覺得原始資料反而不要動比較好
@ronnywang I think the owner not necessarily will state that the website has ads, so I would have this as another question “Do you have advertisements on your websites or planning to have?” and yes/no answer.
或者, 至少加工的過程要有一個透明性… 但這通常原始資料也必須一併提供, 這樣在當前的情境下意義就不大了
被廣告網站整包帶走的確會不爽 XD
@kevinliao I believe the contribution to project is on voluntary basis and no one, including me is forcing you to do it.
對於 0archive 全文資料集的申請，國際交流小組的標準是⋯ 🤔 有沒有研究計畫、是不是信任對方（嗎？）不過狀況又不盡相同
@chihao 我剛剛也想到，如是內容農場要整包打回去重建大農場
被廣告網站整包帶走雖然不爽，但是根據新制他還是可以整包帶走不含個資版本，所以無論如何他還是可以用這資料來賺錢，我覺得做 open data 本來就很難避免別人拿來賺錢，所以申請資料的辦法可能比較不會考慮會不會讓我不爽這件事
我其實蠻好奇的，不含個資版本他還能用來賺錢嗎？
我其實也不會 XD
我認為放廣告也不一定是邪惡錯誤的，如果他那資料做的應用真的對社會有幫助，但是他需要多花錢做這件事，那麼他多加個廣告也沒什麼不好，我不會想把放不放廣告當作申請標準
@isabelhou 如果有內容農場經營者來申請全文資料集再說 XD
@chihao 我想要 0archive 全文資料集, 因為我想要拿來經營內容農場放廣告 ( 來了來了, 可以開始煩惱了)
角色扮演式推坑法！
@chihao 我想要申請 0archive 全文資料庫，我想要把裡面的人名全部替換成公司資料的負責人姓名再做成內容農場（反串要註明 XD）
藝術性！（反串 +1）
其實有的網站雖然可能拿了我的資料加上廣告賺錢（我無法確定是不是真的拿我的資料），但是我看到有些還整合了很多其他政府的 open data ，其實連結性做的還不錯，我看到有跟訴訟資料、工廠登記、標案資料做連結的。其實他們也還是有增加了一些公共性
回覆 @to. 關於 API endpoint （也就是 https<//company.g0v.ronny.tw/id/{id}> 的部份），我不認為大部份網站是從這邊取得資料的，這個我可以從每天的 access log 觀察出來，目前每天大概只有一兩萬的存取量，外面的網站不太可能是從 API 這邊抓取的，如果資料真的是從我這邊拿的，從匯出檔的機會比較大。從 API 要拿兩百多萬家公司的資料，我這邊不可能不會發現的
@ronnywang what log are you referring to? And these are visits or server requests? Cause they are different.
all server requests
Got it. You might not need this now but when you start to pseudonymise names in export, others could try to fetch it via URL endpoint instead.
For that reason I mentioned to you earlier a simple solution how you can prevent some dumb bots and crawlers to access the information by targeting `user agent`. It's not bulletproof but weeds out 80% of trashy crawlers.
Just want to help clarify things for both sides, and maybe prevent undue pressure on @ronnywang --- I believe it is a request for comments that ronny has brought up here, and he hasn't made the decision nor any commitment to pseudonymise the data dump yet.

And in case @to hasn't take the time to translate and read all discussions above: the consensus seems to be that this set of full-dataset-by-request rules would be hard to implement, and easy to bypass. I for one proposed to apply for the full dataset containing the company owner's full names with the stated goal to republish the same dataset somewhere else for public download.

So please understand if some, I for one, would think that bringing up technical discussions at this point feels like trying to force this through.

Of course technical advices are welcomed, although I suspect @ronnywang is very well aware of these practices --- I believe he crawled the data with curl in the first place for many of his works, after all.
@pm5 No need to dive into technical details at this stage, I agree.

However, why would you want to republish this dataset somewhere else? I see these efforts counterintuitive if there are more websites that expose PII.
let me remind you what’s community spirit. If you don’t agree others, please don’t push others or keep talking. Try to do it yourself by your hands. (I mean 動手開幹) you can create your own website, dataset or workflow. If you can prove it works, others would follow you.
Absolutely! *No one here forces anyone to participate*. This is voluntary contribution and I mentioned this here earlier in my comment.
@yhsiang absolutely! This is a voluntary contribution - *no one here forces anyone to participate.* I mentioned it earlier.

https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C02G2SXKX/p1627730154230100?thread_ts=1627646212.077100&cid=C02G2SXKX
@yhsiang absolutely! This is a voluntary contribution - *no one here forces anyone to participate.* I mentioned it earlier.

https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C02G2SXKX/p1627730154230100?thread_ts=1627646212.077100&cid=C02G2SXKX
I think it might be good to explain why I proposed to "apply for the full dataset ... with the stated goal to republish the same dataset somewhere else for public download." So briefly: because I'm not convinced that we've reached a consensus here.

I think for a community like g0v, the cheapest way to reject is to say "I’m not convinced", the easiest way to disagree is to fork, and the most effective way to make changes is to form consensus. And I said that with a lot of respects to people doing the actual discussions and actual works.

Since this is a network of people sharing a set of open tools and ideas, applying pressure to one, and there will be many others with the same capacity to take the place. Just like in this case, anyone could potentially republish the dataset elsewhere, if there is not an agreement. So, most of the time, only by building consensus can you motivate enough of the mass to instill changes.

From the discussions above I see there are comments about one technical proposal, although there are some loose ends remain. These are for the how. As for the why, and for if we should even do this, I don’t really see people acknowledging and processing the concerns of people from the other side. Me included maybe, to be honest. So, no consensus.

I think consensus forming takes a little more than the "I don’t need to provide more information" attitude, which could be daunting for people in some situations. Therefore I’m willing to extrapolate further than I'm used to. But in this case, as was mentioned before (say in https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C02G2SXKX/p1627473080141500) there are two kinds of interests at stake, and personally I do need a bit more information to take a stand. It was also pointed out that there are real cases of this public data being beneficial to research and civic activism. And I’m well-aware of the danger of data abuse and fraud, but I just don’t think the solution is to plug every upstream with paywalls.

Hope this helps, @to
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chihao 20:59:39
@ronnywang 如果有網站濫用你釋出的資料，不是應該（先？）究責那些濫用者嗎？
那要先定義什麼是濫用了，把資料弄成網站並加上廣告賺流量錢雖然看起來有點不舒服，但好像也很難說他就是濫用？
是啊
違反授權條款應該算濫用⋯但這次來要求下架的人在意的應該不是這個？XD
但現在也沒有「授權條款」這東西，而且我們在追求 open data 時，大部份不都是追求不限目的使用嗎，儘管商業使用也可以，那為什麼把資料做成網站加上廣告之後就算是濫用呢
欸，完全同意啊 XD
開放定義裡面也說「最多受到標示來源和持續分享的限制」
喔喔，你最前面的那個究責的主詞是指 s ，不是指我 XD
欸，對 XD 對不起，我沒說清楚 orz
我沒follow好過去的對話（只知道那個坑好像很深）；但是我覺得是否應該回到訴訟實務，即各國法院究竟怎麼看待這些案子？
訴訟實務和條文本身，顯然存在不少落差或眉角？
深坑無誤 XD
@chihao absolutely - I tried to reach other authors already. I mentioned earlier that it's not like I am after the Ronny project only. In fact, others got the messages earlier than Ronny.
@chihao absolutely - I tried to reach other websites already multiple times too.
I mentioned earlier that it's not like I am after the Ronny project only. In fact, others got the messages earlier than Ronny.
@to and why should I believe you?
> 如果有網站濫用你釋出的資料，不是應該（先？）究責那些濫用者嗎？
關於這點… 我認為對濫用者(**)* 究責這件事跟原始資料提供者*（* @ronnywang ）應該是無關的。

就好比我做了一把刀子，但那把刀子被拿去切菜還是切手指都跟我其實是無關的。至少我不必因此負責。

大部分開源軟體授權都有這類免責條款。

但雖然如此，如果一定程度上濫用* 變得很廣泛，提供那些資料就變得不是對公眾有益的行為了。尤其是在受害者* 需要花很 N 倍的時間才能把傷口修補好的時候。或許一定程度上需要能夠追蹤與控制吧。（比方說要有 token 才能取得資料之類的）

*: 姑且假設這「濫用」與「受害」兩詞都有夠明確的定義
gugod ++
1. 原始資料
2. 資料爬下來再公開的人
3. 濫用的人
4. 因為濫用而受到損害的人
有這 4 種角色對嗎？
另外，如果要討論是否限制開放資料，那麼除了看濫用造成的損害（假設濫用的廣泛程度可以被量化），是不是也要看開放資料造成的好處（也假設可以被量化）？
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2021-07-31

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SY 15:49:29
大家好，

我是國立陽明交通大學科技與社會所的彭松嶽。先前（好一陣子以前 😂）有在大松說明目前正在執行科技部研究計畫，希望理解g0v透過揪松或是在專案中如何維持運作。無論您是坑主、PM、志工，或不同形式的參與者或貢獻者，都希望您能分享相關的經驗與看法。我將我主要的問題列出在此：https://g0v.hackmd.io/s/Hy-gb8fkF，希望能夠安排線上訪談（或是直接透過文字提供回饋），搜集的資料亦會在研究彙整之後回報給大家。若有任何建議也請不吝提出。

若有意願參與，請透過slack或是email (syperng@ym.edu.tw) 讓我知道您參與的意願，我會進行訪談時間與方式的安排。

再次謝謝大家也期望能夠得到您的回覆！
松嶽

HackMD

g0v如何運作？ 尋求研究受訪者 - HackMD

# g0v如何運作？ 尋求研究受訪者 ### 研究簡述 您好， 我是國立陽明交通大學科技與社會所的彭松嶽。先前（好一陣子以前 :joy:）有在大松說明目前正在執行科技部研究計畫，希望理解g0v透過揪

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吳浩愷 15:59:37
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pm5 18:36:14
@ronnywang quick question: what if I apply for the full dataset according to the new rules that you proposed, and state that the purpose is to "rebuild the original company.g0v.ronny.tw service that was fully transparent"? Would you give me the data? How would you evaluate such an application?

@ronnywang 問個問題：如果我依照你提議的新機制申請有原來姓名的匯出檔，並且在申請目的說「我想要重建原本有完整資料的 company.g0v.ronny.tw 服務」，你會給我資料嗎？你會怎麼樣處理像這樣的申請？
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caleb 19:08:42
Is there a channel for general questions with programmers helping eachother? 有編程問題的渠道嗎？
used to be #general ? 可以在這裡問吧，所有人都可以看到。
DokiDokiPB 22:23:33
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