#general-en
2017-06-02
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2017-06-04
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2017-06-08
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2017-06-09
FYI, Colin Megill (pol.is) and Audrey are going to be livestreamed from Personal Democracy Forum tomorrow (Friday) morning at 9:15-10am ET! :)
http://stream.civichall.org/
http://stream.civichall.org/
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2017-06-13
Hi folks, FYI I invited the ~15 or so folks who came up to Colin, Audrey, @ttcat and myself after our presentation on Friday to join the conversation here.
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2017-06-14
@devin has joined the channel
Hi everyone. I'm really looking forward to working with others to bring g0v innovations to New York City!
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howdy!
I've been following you all since Liz posted her article on Civist. I met Audrey and TTCat at Personal Democracy Forum in NYC.
Seems you all have figured out the next step for democracy. 🙂
Now I'm hoping to bring attention to your efforts and how we can implement them in NYC by running for office in NYC.
More about my campaign is here: votedevin.com
Oh! Someone told me about your campaign months ago, but I didn't realize you were the same Devin ;)
You're the patcon who participated on a few of my polis's?
Haha yes
Nice. How did you find us?
I don't recall, maybe Colin or @aaronwytze mentioned you. But a friend and I have been doing vtaiwan research for Toronto: beta.hackfoldr.org/vkanata
Are you using anything like the ORID process, or more as a general survey tool? So curious what your learning have been while using it..! :)
I have to look at this ORID thing.
I've been operating as a candidate for office - not a civil society group.
I'm really excited about emerging efforts in NYC to get a civil society group growing so someone else can drive.
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I want to be the advocate and instrument of the system.
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My campaign is a call to get that civil society stuff going.
And to introduce the ideas to NYCers more broadly.
hi @devin meet @hsiao-a , g0v@US West hackathon organizer
@hsiao-a has joined the channel
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👋🏼 hiya everyone, I’m one of the folks @lizbarry invited and am a technologist/activist and independent researcher on deliberative democracy in DC. super excited to be here with a lot of names I recognize
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Hi @hsiao-a. Are you on the US west coast? I'll be in Portland (for Open Source Bridge Conference) and LA next week.
@devin he based in NYC 😛
@devin http://votedevin.com/2017/03/27/feedback-on-defining-municipalism/ the girl on right side is my friend!!
Devin for Public Advocate
Tell us what “municipalism” means to you. Learn more on the topic page.
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hey @thebestsophist ~
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Hi @devin yes I am in NYC; I think ttcat meant to say "east" coast 😅 and hi @thebestsophist . I am a local g0v organizer and would love to help out translating/transitioning any g0v ideas to the City!
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@devin are you on the ballots this year?
Hi!!!
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@hsiao-a great that you're in NYC. We can definitely use your help! I'll send you some of our most up to date materials about the campaign. We're integrating a lot of existing open source to provide a coherent web app for a "people's process". You can see the beginning of that here: proposals.votedevin.com - where we integrated Polis and Consul (Madrid's crowdsource proposal app) together by creating a "Conversations" plugin that allows for Polis embeds.
To answer your question about ballot access:\
I'm running with the Libertarian Party and already won the primary, but I'll still need to petition for ballot access.
Petitioning for our party legally begins July 15 and goes into late August. It will require a lot of effort 10,000+ signatures but it's possible.
Awesome! Congrats on winning the nomination. I was a bit worried there when I didn't see your name on the list of candidates in Gotham Gazette
I definitely hope to get "participatory democracy" on the ballot in November.
Yes I'll be on future lists. Just was a little late getting my paperwork in.
We also have a Livestream studio in downtown Brooklyn we can use.
And a cast of animated characters that will make our process seem less intimidating. 🙂
Cool, I'd love to help out anywhere we can. I can start out by delivering you some signatures from our Taiwanese American community
That would be amazing. Where in NYC are you located?
I am in Hell's Kitchen
Fantastic.
Here's an unfinished version of our proposed 7-step process.
great. I love you have designer on staff lol
And here's an unfinished version of how the Livestream show fits with step 1 and 2 of the process.
Ha no staff. I'm just pretty good at coordinating remote work.
Love it. vTaiwan, as mentioned in Audrey's talk, is open source too in case you need something like that
Yes we're an all open source operation too. And I work in nonprofit open source software too. So open source all the way. 🙂
Once we can get a few big cities collaborating on software together I think this entire movement will grow very quickly.
how are you involving beta.nyc, CfA or Civic Hall in your campaign?
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2017-06-15
Well I haven't officially announced my candidacy yet.
I'm waiting for the IRS to issue me an EIN so I can collect donations first.
There was been some bug preventing them for doing it. Hopefully by the end of the week it'll be resolved.
But I've been hoping and continue to hope that a group related to/within BetaNYC emerges to advance the Taiwanese model
and then I could work with them as a peer.
I have to be careful not to turn this process into something people only associate with my campaign.
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Doing so could undermine the process's long term success.
That said - I plan to fund a part-time facilitator role who could help with in person events and getting a group going.
Or at least - supporting an emerging group.
If you know anyone who might be good at that - please let me know.
It is also my interest to support and grow a group of "nobody" facilitators working in the English language generally, and in NYC specifically. BetaNYC would be a good local home for this community, but before we even start there i've been connecting people directly with this g0v slack.
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先承認你就是沒有人
cc @theobass
So excited by this! We've been speaking with public consultation professionals in Toronto about the vTaiwan process: the city's new open data supervisor, denis carr, is really interested and has set up meetings for us. @biancawylie, a prominent member of the public consultation community in the city is also excited about possibilities.
Basically, I'm so incredibly excited by this whole conversation :)
(Have started a new job that means this has been backburner'd a bit until I was sure I could do it justice. But I could bring it frontrunner again!)
willing to travel to NYC if I have a couch to crash on.
Basically, I'm so incredibly excited by this whole conversation :)
(Have started a new job that means this has been backburner'd a bit until I was sure I could do it justice. But I could bring it frontrunner again!)
willing to travel to NYC if I have a couch to crash on.
Also, I am really glad to see you friendly english visualization @devin! We totally need those!
Great me too!
I have two great couches.
Each with their unique charms.
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I will admit that I'm seeing some features possibly missing from the visuals, that had impressed me as fairly important. This mostly related to O in ORID and that first fact-finding phase (definitions and objective facts) being distinct from opinion-gathering phase. I understand that separation to be for fairly established reasons.
From conversation with @theobass, I might assume he would flag the same important bit as lacking emphasis in the visuals? (Theo did the digital democracy report with a small vtainwan case-study. He also has a deep dive vtaiwan case study coming out soon, which I would maybe suggest waiting on, before finalizing releases on process :) it is so so chock full of good stuff!)
From conversation with @theobass, I might assume he would flag the same important bit as lacking emphasis in the visuals? (Theo did the digital democracy report with a small vtainwan case-study. He also has a deep dive vtaiwan case study coming out soon, which I would maybe suggest waiting on, before finalizing releases on process :) it is so so chock full of good stuff!)
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And also: YAAAAAAY!!
Oh man, I need to start scouting negabus tickets! Would be so fun to geek out on this!
*Megabus: Arch revil of negabus
Cool. I'm back in NYC on the 27th so sometime thereafter would work.
As for the ORID/fact-finding phase - yes I agree.
And I'd like to know more.
devin: would you be down for a video chat sometime? :)
sure
Is there a democratic process to create a rough idea of the topic.
?
devin: would you be down for a video chat sometime? :)
count me in for the NYC geek-out session! 👍
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sure
Great.
I got on a call and will finish my question/thought re:ORID
2017-06-16
Okay - so yes, how do we do the fact-finding phase?
Is there a public poll-type process to come up with the rough idea of a topic and then an investigation into how to frame it?
Or maybe there is some other way to rank general/rough topics?
re: NYC geek out session, I'd like look to after the 4th of July long weekend so that i can be there :smile:
How about sometime the week of July 10th through the 15th?
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lizbarry: I'm currently unbooked for those days! Could do that.
Regarding the fact-finding phase, it would be great to hear from @au.
- is there a fact-finding phase?
- if so, does it happen before g0v facilitators meet individually with stakeholders? Does a set of facts emerge from individual meetings with stakeholders?
- do the stakeholders each offer their own set of relevant facts?
- Does the vTaiwan process for each topic still involve the creation of a lexicon to avoid semantic arguments?
thank you in advance Audrey!
- is there a fact-finding phase?
- if so, does it happen before g0v facilitators meet individually with stakeholders? Does a set of facts emerge from individual meetings with stakeholders?
- do the stakeholders each offer their own set of relevant facts?
- Does the vTaiwan process for each topic still involve the creation of a lexicon to avoid semantic arguments?
thank you in advance Audrey!
@devin some people are working on crowdsourcing fact check system and adopt to a chat bot on LINE (a popular mobile messenger like whasapp in Aisa)
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similar experiment that people from g0v have tried before is this one: https://newshelper.g0v.tw/ an browser extension to mark certain links
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@anreg
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Let me clarify my question.
I'm wondering how you determine the issue to be tackled.
How do you come up with the issue and then how do you come up with the framing of it?
2017-06-17
on vTaiwan, the issue is brought to weekly meetups by ministries, or suggested at weekly meetups to ministries
either way it need to relate to digital economy in some way, and both ministries and meetup participants need to agree to tackle it.
the initial framing is helped by the Regulatory Reform Center, a unit in National Development Council
@devin it's a doozey (and so I don't suggest it lightly), but this video was the thing that was most clarifying of vTaiwan (and g0v) process, at least prior to reading @theobass's draft case study: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8tc_5bM0zSM
YouTube
lizbarry: I'm currently unbooked for those days! Could do that.
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Wow that really is a doozy. 4+ hours!
there’s a transcript though
https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Fork-the-government-CES-2WkwonjChbKbl1qMVLGJW (would be great if you can help editing as you watch it)
Dropbox Paper
<https://youtu.be/8tc_5bM0zSM> Host: OK, good afternoon to everybody. My name is Giovanni Allegretti.
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au: we can host an viewing + editing transcript party
Yay for transcripts! Thanks. And yes Liz I agree this is good fodder for an event.
ok i guess we have to have an event! I offer to host, will use Matt's projector -- what do you think?
alternative to me coming down is to somehow do a dual location thing in two places?
was originally thinking about a watch+discuss event in toronto, but open to whatever.
also, i really do want so badly to come visit NYC, so i'm torn in suggesting the dual event thing 😛
was originally thinking about a watch+discuss event in toronto, but open to whatever.
also, i really do want so badly to come visit NYC, so i'm torn in suggesting the dual event thing 😛
That's possible.
I do have a couch and more work tends to get done quicker in person.
created #july-nyc-hangout for discussion/planning
let me know if you’d like an editable invite sent to an email somewhere
re the fact-finding process, it differs by case. one technique is a series preparatory meetings cumulating on a shared digital whiteboard. click “Board” in https://pdis.nat.gov.tw/#/how-we-work/tracks to see how it works
pdis.nat.gov.tw
We incubate and facilitate public digital innovation and service.
it’s a variation of this English material: https://realtimeboard.com/blog/post-it-notes-problem-solving-part-1/
RealtimeBoard Blog
Problem solving with online post-it notes basing on the methods described in the David Straker's book: Post-up, Swap Sort, Top-Down Tree, Information Map.
in other cases it was simply a drop-box where relevant links to facts can be sent and reviewed and added to a hackfoldr, but still reviewed and collected in f2f weekly meetups
au: we can host an viewing + editing transcript party
ok @au -- thank you very much for joining in here. Based on this information and what we discussed in-person last week, I'm going to hazard a short answer to Devin's questions, please jump in to correct me if i'm wrong:
* "how do you determine the issue to be tackled?" -- i'm assuming this is a prioritization question. There is a standing weekly meeting in the well-equipped Information Center of the Ministry of Finance. At this meeting, _either_ government ministries (agencies) themselves can identify a difficult issue with an online aspect that requires cross-ministry coordination to address. _Or_, citizens can file a petition, and with enough support (5000 signatures) it will automatically become a topic.
* "how do you determine the framing of it?" -- in person, during the pre-meetings with stakeholders facilitated by trained g0v nobodies.
Thanks @au and @liz. That's what I was thinking - govt can request a topic or it can bubble up from petitioning.
devin: i also have a pile of detailed notes from @au on the petition staffing within each ministry and a more elaborate schedule. There's a monthly meeting as well, + Monday meetings, a "Policy Lab Friday", and a time when @au brings the consensus items resulting from a poll to the premier. I'm not adding this all into this convo because clearly as we get started over here it's happening without government assistance. I will write it up shortly tho.
but there is a takeaway, which is that each poll topic is getting a lot of hours of human support not only from g0v facilitators, but also from ministry staff who naturally have deep domain expertise
How do you identify "stakeholders" before you've begun using Polis?
devin: i have this exact same question, and i don't know!
we ask ministries to tally stakeholders from academia, media, private and voluntary sectors; then invite the weekly meetup to add to it; then send rolling-wave surveys so each identified stakeholder can recommend themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakeholder_analysis#Methods_of_Stakeholder_Mapping has the basic concept to begin with.
Thanks @au!!! This is super information. Has anyone ever estimated the # of ministry staff hours that go into setting up a poll, and the # of g0v facilitator hours for running and moderating the poll?
not as far as I know. that also depend heavily on the complexity of the case. I’d say it’s in the range of 10s of hours for both sides for smaller cases and 100s in slightly more complex cases.
Yay for transcripts! Thanks. And yes Liz I agree this is good fodder for an event.
devin: i have this exact same question, and i don't know!
devin: i also have a pile of detailed notes from @au on the petition staffing within each ministry and a more elaborate schedule. There's a monthly meeting as well, + Monday meetings, a "Policy Lab Friday", and a time when @au brings the consensus items resulting from a poll to the premier. I'm not adding this all into this convo because clearly as we get started over here it's happening without government assistance. I will write it up shortly tho.
but there is a takeaway, which is that each poll topic is getting a lot of hours of human support not only from g0v facilitators, but also from ministry staff who naturally have deep domain expertise
ok i guess we have to have an event! I offer to host, will use Matt's projector -- what do you think?
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@planspark has joined the channel
Hi, I'm the founder and CEO of Intellitics, Inc., a digital engagement consultancy based in San José, CA (USA). A few years ago, we launched ParticipateDB, an open online catalogue for digital engagement tools and services. We are getting ready to launch a global practitioner survey to help us better understand how technology is shaping community engagement and public participation around the world. We are working with a number of international partners to help us reach a global audience. We are still missing contacts in Asia who could help get the word out and share the survey with their networks. If you know people who might be interested in this project (whether in Taiwan or elsewhere in Asia), I would be very happy to connect. Thanks!
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Btw, here's the entry on Polis to give you an idea how ParticipateDB is structured (aims to list not only the tools themselves but also provide additional resources that show how the tool is applied in practice): http://www.participatedb.com/tools/331
we ask ministries to tally stakeholders from academia, media, private and voluntary sectors; then invite the weekly meetup to add to it; then send rolling-wave surveys so each identified stakeholder can recommend themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakeholder_analysis#Methods_of_Stakeholder_Mapping has the basic concept to begin with.
Stakeholder analysis in conflict resolution, project management, and business administration, is the process of the impact of a decision on relevant parties. This information is used to assess how the interests of those stakeholders should be addressed in a project plan, policy, program, or other action. Stakeholder analysis is a key part of stakeholder management. A stakeholder analysis of an issue consists of weighing and balancing all of the competing demands on a firm by each of those who have a claim on it, in order to arrive at the firm's obligation in a particular case. A stakeholder analysis does not preclude the interests of the stakeholders overriding the interests of the other stakeholders affected, but it ensures that all affected will be considered. Stakeholder analysis is frequently used during the preparation phase of a project to assess the attitudes of the stakeholders regarding the potential changes. Stakeholder analysis can be done once or on a regular basis to track changes in stakeholder attitudes over time.
Thanks @au!!! This is super information. Has anyone ever estimated the # of ministry staff hours that go into setting up a poll, and the # of g0v facilitator hours for running and moderating the poll?
not as far as I know. that also depend heavily on the complexity of the case. I’d say it’s in the range of 10s of hours for both sides for smaller cases and 100s in slightly more complex cases.
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2017-06-19
Hi @planspark i’m in nyc working with various grass roots org as well as one we started, Coalition For A New Democracy. When do you expect to finish your survey and publish the results? Keen if there could be some learnings applicable to issues we are only in the early stages of tackling. Thx!
alternative to me coming down is to somehow do a dual location thing in two places?
was originally thinking about a watch+discuss event in toronto, but open to whatever.
also, i really do want so badly to come visit NYC, so i'm torn in suggesting the dual event thing 😛
was originally thinking about a watch+discuss event in toronto, but open to whatever.
also, i really do want so badly to come visit NYC, so i'm torn in suggesting the dual event thing 😛
@devin:
video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tc_5bM0zSM#t=3h13m20s
slides: https://www.slideshare.net/autang/fork-the-government#82
transcript: https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Fork-the-government-CES-2WkwonjChbKbl1qMVLGJW#editor-1-ace-line-1233
video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tc_5bM0zSM#t=3h13m20s
slides: https://www.slideshare.net/autang/fork-the-government#82
transcript: https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Fork-the-government-CES-2WkwonjChbKbl1qMVLGJW#editor-1-ace-line-1233
slideshare.net
Workshop for ICT-enabled Deliberative Democracy Center for Social Studies (CES), Coimbra, 2016-03-03
<https://youtu.be/8tc_5bM0zSM> Host: OK, good afternoon to everybody. My name is Giovanni Allegretti.
That's possible.
I do have a couch and more work tends to get done quicker in person.
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@planspark ohai! This might be up your alley: https://github.com/canada-ca/welcome/issues/20
I'm also curious to know how participateDB differentiates itself from participedia. Is there enough alignment to work together or build a common dataset of tools/orgs/cases?
(Disclaimer: participedia went a long way to winning me over in that linked thread, with their new open source platform 🙂 )
I'm also curious to know how participateDB differentiates itself from participedia. Is there enough alignment to work together or build a common dataset of tools/orgs/cases?
(Disclaimer: participedia went a long way to winning me over in that linked thread, with their new open source platform 🙂 )
GitHub
(le français suit...) The public engagement team at Privy Council Office, along with our friends and colleagues in the Consultations Community of Practice, need your help! We want to make a list of...
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oops, just realized i typo'd and mis-mentioned y'all in this tweet a few days ago 😕
https://twitter.com/patconnolly/status/875080537714675712
https://twitter.com/patconnolly/status/875080537714675712
oops, just realized i typo'd and mis-mentioned y'all in this tweet a few days ago 😕
https://twitter.com/patconnolly/status/875080537714675712
https://twitter.com/patconnolly/status/875080537714675712
2017-06-20
@colinmegill has joined the channel
Well @patcon, as @devin says we'd be psyched to have you in NYC but of course we know that's a lot of schlepp for you. To match Devin's couch, let me add that I have a kitchen and can feed a small event if we host it at my house.
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Fascinating discussion above... just joining.
I'm working on a much longer vTaiwan case study (we had so much useful material including content from interviews with Audrey, cl and Colin that I couldn't fit in the report!) ... i'll share it here soon.
@lizbarry could i run it past you before it's published ? 🙂
I'm working on a much longer vTaiwan case study (we had so much useful material including content from interviews with Audrey, cl and Colin that I couldn't fit in the report!) ... i'll share it here soon.
@lizbarry could i run it past you before it's published ? 🙂
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oooh…I’ve been spending the last year doing similar research on the historical+cultural contexts, would love to see what you’re working on, too
Awesome. Will share a draft with you now 🙂
I'd LOVE to read it @theobass
report here btw http://www.nesta.org.uk/publications/digital-democracy-tools-transforming-political-engagement
nesta.org.uk
This paper shares lessons from Nesta’s research into some of the pioneering innovations in digital democracy which are taking place across Europe and beyond
oooh…I’ve been spending the last year doing similar research on the historical+cultural contexts, would love to see what you’re working on, too
so is anyone coming to civictechfest.org in Sep?
I sooo wish I was…I maxed out my conference travel this year before learning about it 😭
Would love love LOVE to, but def outside my budget capacity these days
phew, it looks like i _might_ have support to come to southeast china / HK in August and November, and will aim to swing through Taipei at one of those times.
JEALOUS EMOJI
Me 🙂
... still in the process of persuading my boss. Will find out soon 🙂
Me. 😄
Awesome. Will share a draft with you now 🙂
I sooo wish I was…I maxed out my conference travel this year before learning about it 😭
2017-06-21
Would love love LOVE to, but def outside my budget capacity these days
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phew, it looks like i _might_ have support to come to southeast china / HK in August and November, and will aim to swing through Taipei at one of those times.
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I'd LOVE to read it @theobass
2017-06-22
JEALOUS EMOJI
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hackpad.tw
Slack context The purpose of this document is to make a rough plan for a hangout in NYC for anyone in the area who is eager to discuss vTaiwan and g0v process in North American context.
created #july-nyc-hangout for discussion/planning
2017-06-23
@derekhoward has joined the channel
@n0v8 has joined the channel
2017-06-27
Me 🙂
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