jothon

frankhu 19:36:33

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Ying 19:51:23

set the channel topic: 2023 g0v 黑客松 | 下次大松 04/08 週六 @ 中研院資訊所 | :jothon_feels_good: 這裡是揪松（ㄐㄧㄡˋㄙㄨㄥˋ）頻道，討論揪松團相關活動與事務，包括黑客松、線上揪松以及更多松。 :evergreen_tree:🌲🌲

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Hong Min 18:46:41

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chewei 20:37:03

挖坑的流程圖，加註一些重點

👀 3 1

isabelhou 22:33:12

我會有疑慮的是成果掠奪、還有代表性的問題。

isabelhou 22:34:37

另外，g0v.london 和 g0v network 關係是?

ael 22:39:19

g0v.london 是我和 @patcon 在倫敦，根據 Civic Tech Toronto 的 Hacknight 形式加上 g0v 精神，所開始的社群活動。g0v.london 這個 domain 目前是 @patcon 買的，在他名下

g0v.network 是當時包括 @patcon 在內，幾位北美的朋友創立的。我們因為方便，所以目前影片是先上傳到 g0v.network 的 YouTube channel.

@patcon what would you describe the relations of g0v.London and g0v.network?

ael 22:40:52

我覺得 g0vhk.io 或甚至後來義大利也都有。非台灣人用是 OK 甚至被鼓勵的，但應該就是秉持社群一直以來的精神，自己沒參加的事情，不要說是「我們」做過什麼什麼

patcon 07:17:03

> we must also pay attention to other values, and we cannot be rigidly open
>
I recall the proposition (by Ian) that openness for one group might be to avoid open source. E.g., open availability to one group might require gdocs. I agree with this. In my home community of Civic Tech Toronto, we just barely talk about open source and essentially never about open licenses.

patcon 07:17:06

We instead highly encourage open culture and open project work, and it just happens that everyone uses defacto open source and open license. We don't take it ourselves in our onboarding to teach it though -- ppl seem to just figure it out fine

patcon 07:17:39

It's just pretty minimal in our onboarding, that's all

patcon 07:20:14

The thought that Ian and I shared (as I recall) was that emphasizing open source and especially types of license early might mean non-technical community contributors have more reason to think "oh, this place is for tech ppl" and then we have to work harder to convince them otherwise

patcon 07:28:44

Re: g0v.london and g0v.network

Both domains are managed at this git repo, using a designated cloudflare account that can pretty easily be collectivized. https://link.g0v.network/domains

g0v.network was just something we (me, Liz, CS, Darshana, 5-ish more) felt appropriate when trying to organize non-nationally in 2017 between UK, USA, Canada. We created a GitHub org for tracking issues and a YouTube account for sharing videos. A few of us have admin, but I'm the only one who seems to actively use it :man-shrugging:🏻

patcon 07:30:18

Basically just using it for some g0v.london stuff (like repos and videos) bc it seemed silly to create another GitHub org when there was already another unused one? Maybe that's wrong though

chihao 10:42:47

https://grants.g0v.tw/ 500 ⚠️

😲 2

chihao 10:42:47

https://grants.g0v.tw/ 500 ⚠️

chihao 10:44:10

@chewei 那我來把這個翻成英文版 \o/

isabelhou 19:04:11

一直修不好 😞

chihao 22:12:35

I think it’s wrong to characterize using google docs as “not open source”

chihao 22:13:00

I think g0v is built on open source

chihao 22:14:43

Using the name g0v to me implies value alignment with g0v. The values of g0v are expressed in the g0v Manifesto and open source is clearly part of the Manifesto.

chihao 22:18:46

Openness (abstraction) can be expressed in many ways (instance) and in the instance of g0v, it’s open source, or at least based on open source mechanisms (licenses, ways of collaboration…)

chihao 22:20:58

To me open source licenses are essential to collaboration in that it avoids (or at least reduces) exploitation - in that that it encourages sharing while gives credit where credit is due. Openness without it is less ideal imo.

chihao 22:22:20

To me I worry about the use of the name g0v outside of Taiwan without fully taking on the values of g0v (Manifesto). It’s problematic to me, cultural appropriation or not.

chihao 22:23:48

Saying all of this is not me stopping any new initiative but me joining this on-going conversation :p

patcon 22:30:51

Re: "essential to collaboration". We don't emphasize it in our 101 intros in Toronto, just working openly. And I feel like open collaboration works fine there, and my sense is that Toronto culture has converged pretty close to what's developed in Taiwan. Essentially every last project ends up being open source. I just don't like to be told I need to emphasize it early, when my experience is that it's not essential to do so <3

patcon 22:31:17

I feel resistant to being told (in a personal sense) that I must talk about open source and licenses when introducing our community to new ppl when I host our weekly 101 session. I support others to harp on it as much as they please when they run the session. But my personal sense is that it's unnecessarily tech-centric for my tastes. I'd rather focus on open leadership, and give ppl less reason to think they need to be rooted in technology culture to belong.

chihao 22:35:06

I am totally onboard with open leadership and space and more. I think it’s could be misguiding to characterize open source licensing as “tech-centric” though when looking at CC’s adoption in both g0v and the wider creative community.

chihao 22:36:15

I am also totally onboard of people running their communities however they see fit. I am only asserting my belief that (the name) g0v and open source (licensing) are tightly connected :)

chihao 22:39:02

I also want to share my personal experience as a newbie to g0v in 2014. g0vers at the time reminded me that I need to set a (open) license for my project because that would influence people’s willingness to contribute. That was a very important moment for me.

gpt chat 21:42:09

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ronnywang 10:17:24

grants is back

何雅瑄 00:55:05

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HACO 21:57:52

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RS 14:58:54

哈囉揪松的各位，開放國會這邊預計下週一 (3/20) 晚上七點要開數位小組會議，想問問 keyholder 們有沒有空幫忙 host 會議室！有興趣要來一起玩也可以(・ω・)ノ

RS 14:59:32

偷 cue 一下也是坑主跟前坑主的 @ronnywang @isabelhou!

ronnywang 15:02:37

我 ok

RS 15:03:30

好的！太習慣借 MozTW 了，剛剛才看懂申請方式是填表單orz

RS 15:03:40

\那我趕緊去寫一寫/

Ying 15:32:58

哈囉 @rschiang 已經登記借用＆回信囉！

RS 15:40:42

感謝 @averyying2022！ʕ•̀ω•́ʔ✧

Peter 19:50:10

可以++嗎

Peter 19:50:17

想旁聽討論

RS 17:37:18

都來都可以來// 希望不會太沈悶就是XD

ael 09:01:46

@patcon I don’t think @ian869 ‘a proposition is that we should “avoid open source” in order to be open. His proposition was, in my understanding, not to exclude not-open-source tools for communication, for instance, it is okay to use Google Doc.

My position is that g0v contributors’ contribution should be clearly stated to be in open source licenses from the very beginning as it is the foundation of open collaboration preventing exploitation. Otherwise, how do people trust strangers to work together? It is the clear understanding that how the collective work would be used that build the trust infrastructure.

I don’t think introducing the idea of open source would be too hard to onboard non-tech contributors. I have done that with many non-tech communities and organisations.

I blame myself that I didn’t make my point firmly and haven’t demonstrated and convinced you that introducing open source is not creating another barrier.

ael 09:14:49

I also suggest we should share the next g0v.london co-organiser meeting time and link to g0v community as the topic here is the roots of what consists of g0v and how a community can use the name of g0v to host events.

ael 09:31:32

I am glad to share with the community that #london-hacknight now is run by a group of co-organisers more than just @patcon and me. @patcon, I think that decentralisation is what we both wanted when we initiated g0v.London civic hacknight.

Therefore, I am going to copy more co-organisers here to understand the contexts and join the discussion

@zf @ruth.wetters @ian869 @james Cattell

tmonk 15:19:44

Dear jothon:
我來跟 jothon 辦公室約歸還直播筆電的時間，想約明日週二（03/21）早上 11:00 歸還，請問時間上是否方便？
或是約同一天的其他時間也可以。

tmonk 15:20:30

@yiting.lin @averyying2022

Ying 15:21:48

好喔！明天上午 11:00 見～

shuyang 16:48:10

我是覺得要用 g0v 這幾個字就好好的跟著 g0v manifesto 做啦，並且跟 jothon 保持聯絡
不然就換別的名字，想要叫 newspeakhouse, civictech.london 還是什麼都好
這件事情現在還是一個不是很裡想的狀態，所以希望訂一個 deadline (比如說4/30) 大家把規則定義清楚，要叫什麼名字，裡面適合怎麼樣的專案等等

這邊也貼上我在WA裏面寫的訊息：

For me, it’s very clear that g0v lives in open source.

So, that means even before this community use the name “g0v”, we should have adopted the spirit of living in open source already.

I am pretty sure it’s not alright to use the name g0v while not align with g0v manifesto…. 🤔 I can understand that this is in a beginning phase… but it’s been four months already!

So here is my opinion -
I think we have two ways out:

1. not call ourselves g0v anymore
2. continue using the name g0v, and start align with the manifesto today

https://g0v.tw/intl/zh-TW/manifesto/en/
``````

shuyang 16:49:57

“live open source” in g0v refers to:

Project outcomes (including but not limited to text, images, code, data, analysis, and processes) are open-source, allowing more people to use, improve, comment, and maximize their usage.

So all this group needs to commit is only that all the projects in g0v london follows this spirit, and choose a license to take part.

any license from here, except the lower right corner saying “i don’t want to choose a license”

https://choosealicense.com

shuyang 16:57:29

License 的部分可能請 jothon 幫忙討論一下
目前這個在newspeakhouse 定期聚會的團體可能因為成員各自有自己以前待過的團體的經驗，對於 open source, open license 會有從原團體運作模式遷移過來印象
比如說擔心 是不是說一定要 open source 就會太 technical 等等的
這點我想在 g0v 也是有鼓勵藝術、設計背景的參與者使用 Creative Commons

shuyang 17:02:21

當然也要看這團體成員的興趣與意願在哪
如果最終目標放在有很多人參加活動、每週有講者，那麼一般的 meetup 模式就很夠用了
有許多 inclusive code of conduct 或許值得參考？

ronnywang 21:05:45

RS 記得要寫小松果喔

patcon 21:17:23

My personal position is that open culture and open collaboration are the most paramount values to hacknights, which represent an effort to "reimagine a new form of civic participation." (This is how I have understood my past work and perhaps misinterpreted the work of g0v.tw) In that sense, "open source" for us in Toronto was simply a means to that end, a specific [techo-legal] implementation of opennness.

patcon 21:17:48

My belief is that ppl doing civic work who are too fearful to work open source should still be very welcome to speak, participate, seek support, and be given a platform to share. so long as they communicate openly about what they are, and aspire for openness in ways that make sense in their context. In practice, the rare speakers (and even rarer breakout groups) that are not fully open source, they extend themselves in their interactions with us, and grow more eager about the possibilities of openness through that process.

patcon 21:18:01

For example, an upcoming London speaker started an ethical tech worker co-op that does bike food delivery. They don't do open source yet, though it is a topic of discussion internally. But when they do open their software, they are using software under a co-operative software license, which is not open source. Their license would only allow other co-operative to run the platform. And even if they don't choose to open their software, I would still want to participate in a community that gives platform to such efforts, and doesn't prioritize open source technologists' work above other worthy efforts that those technologists can both learn from and offer support to :)
https://twitter.com/wings_coop

patcon 21:18:28

Another example is marginalized indie game developers. In Toronto there is a respected community that is very open in leadership, and helps ppl from marginalized backgrounds break into gaming. They do not push open source. As an admirer, I would not expect them to. They run programs to help marginalized creators bootstrap game studios. They are ppl shaping stories that are not often told, and we were proud to host them, and to have shared members and shared values. They are not, nor would I expect them to be particularly valuing open source game creation, amongst a group that is already disadvantaged. but they are open in other ways, and share practices and learnings inside and outside their community. Coercing open source to be the deepest value (rather than openness) feels like it telegraphs that this type of labour and collaboration would not be very high priority in a g0v community.
https://twitter.com/emilyamacrae/status/1151277821316292608

patcon 21:20:23

For our upcoming organizing meeting, I plan to compile a list of past speakers in Toronto (there have been several hundred) who would seem to be de-priorotized by a manifesto that places open source above simple openness and other values. I worry that over-emphasizing open source going forward will result in speaker bookings and invitations that have a harder time busting silos between sectors. I feel it's important to be welcome of many types of speakers and not have that be second guessed by other members due to a sense of open source being the highest value. Booking weekly speakers is hard already, and we have learned in toronto to keep the movement "big tent" with as few constraints as possible outside "civics" (e.g., no specific monthly themes). I hear this conversation, and wonder if it means future speaker booker's will feel unwelcome to invite the sorts of amazing speakers who I understand to have energized the efforts in Toronto and made the culture and pace possible.

patcon 21:30:10

@sylin presented great options, but I can think of a few more:

1. Not call ourselves g0v anymore (civictech.london was suggested by a few co-organisers not active in this convo)
2. Continue using the g0v brand and start aligning with the g0v.tw manifesto asap
3. Fork the g0v.tw manifesto with a minimal change to suit preferences of active participants with g0v.london (and check if friendly forks like this are permitted by... upstream?)
4. Keep the g0v brand and manifesto, and allow ppl who don't identify as g0v nobodies to continue contributing to the effort (language of "we are all g0v" etc may need some tweaking, as well as setting norms on whether it's permitted to discuss this new nuance openly)
5. Keep the g0v brand and manifesto and ask ppl who disagree to step back from participating in co-organising

chihao 21:41:02

Wait I don’t see anyone coercing anything here…

patcon 21:43:10

I just meant the sense of "open source must be a core value in all g0v nodes, or the brand shouldn't be used"

chihao 21:43:25

I guess that term did stick out to me :p

patcon 21:43:55

Yeah, sorry, I was probably unfairly provocative :( I'll find another word :pray:🏻

chihao 21:44:47

I get that provocation though :p

chihao 21:45:29

It is in situations like this we are forced to reevaluate :)

patcon 21:48:11

Reevaluating is appreciated, even if it doesn't mean change! It's ok if things stay the same. I was worried I'd feel like I had to go if I disagreed, but I think I found a way to stay 🤞🏻, so I'm relieved 😅

bil 00:54:23

我覺得開源或開放並沒有那麼完全程式導向，然後各地的社群並不一定需要使用「g0v」這個詞彙。鼓勵分享跟鼓勵貢獻都算是開放的文化（作為一個不會寫程式人對開源的理解

Ian Davis 03:23:23

@patcon I think this statement is important to me in helping you understand what I an the other members of g0v are advocating for when we say open source: https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C0385B90D/p1678198726006939?thread_ts=1677338358.382139&cid=C0385B90D

Open source is not just a technical thing, it is a philosophy that can cover many non-technical ways on practicing openness as a value. For example, I have seen many non-technical communities practice open source / openness using Google Docs to allow for public and collaborative open documents, even though the tool itself is not an open source tool. I disagree with people who say that all tools we use must be open source, I think this may be where your core disagreement with the phrase open source comes from, as you want to allow us to invite communities to that practice openness in other ways even if their tool is not open source.

However, I also think that licensing and open source is very important when the community itself it collaborating to make a new tool, or supporting a project. I don't think it would be appropriate, for example, to have a speaker from GoogleDocs come to a g0v meetup trying to promote or sell their closed source tool. Though it might be okay for someone from GoogleDocs to come and demo how you can use the tool to host a collaborative and open discussion as long as they aren't asking the community to contribute labor towards their private commercial enterprise.

I consider licensing another way of practicing the value of openness / open source, and I think it's an important conversation to have in every meeting. I do not consider it a technical conversation -- licenses apply to all forms of intellectual property, including creative content (i.e. Creative Commons licenses), and I think they are a critical mechanism for agreeing on the shared governance of collective labor contributed at events. Ignoring or avoiding these questions early in a project makes it very easy for those with more privilege or skills to take advantage of the contributions of others for personal gain. I don't consider having conversations about licenses a technical discussion, it's a legal and governance discussion, and it's a discussion about how the group wants their labor to be used by others.

Ian Davis 03:25:14

Based on the conversations I have had with @patcon and @aelcenganda, I think there is agreement between everyone on the values here, I think it may just be disagreement over specific terms or words and how they are used.

tmonk 10:57:40

已請四樓櫃檯代收 jothon 筆電

Ying 10:58:27

Okok，我快到了

Ying 11:05:32

已在櫃檯拿到筆電囉，感謝 Tmonk！

caleb 08:49:12

Open source is an ill defined adjacent philosophical concept to g0v's openness manifesto. It's an ill defined term. The values behind MIT and Gpl3 for example are imo quite different, but both are called "open source." One allows a game developer's hard work to be exploited for free, the other, not so much.

Openness as a value can't possibly mean "pure open source" without contradicting openness of accessibility to work on a project, because requiring a full hardware stack of open source software, starting at coreboat and moving up, means only a small portion of people will be able to work on projects (or even connect to the wifi at a hackathon!) because most machines run non free firmware, or the operating system includes nonfree drivers (or just is non free).

The painful part of openness is growing pains as openness to non taiwanese participants and cultural norms has the predictable and desired result of bringing in non taiwanese participants! With the good comes a little bad, but in my opinion it's worth it. Maybe the little bad will turn out to be not so bad in the end. I've learned "tolerance without adaptation" is a good strategy for me when I move to a new country. For example, for a couple years I tolerated and observed some Taiwan labor practices, without trying to modify my own values to adopt them. In that case I decided not to adapt at all and that's why I started a co-op. But I made sure to tolerate for just a moment, because it let me have insight I wouldn't have otherwise. For example, I think make up holidays are really stupid, but I listened long enough to finally hear from a friend that he likes them because it means get gets two days in a row off some other time (never mind that you can have both...).

So basically even though conversations like this can be difficult, or cause strong emotions, that's a feature, not something to avoid. If we want to grow we have to experience some pain occasionally, as far as I know anyway.

isabelhou 22:21:34

4/8 帶來大松

irvin 22:40:44

好！

irvin 22:45:24

Btw 我們有 branding 的頸繩還有上百條，有需求時也可以麻煩代為處理一下

ael 05:26:20

7-8 co-organisers shared their understandings and visions on open source and g0v community. Power dynamics was addressed. Unfortunately, we didn't have time to come to a clear conclusion on the community's name and governance structure, but committed to slow down and resolve that in the following month. (from my understanding)

The decision right now is to suspend the events before further discussion on April 20th. The next scheduled g0v.london civic hacknight will be on April 25th. The scheduled speaker is going to speak on Strike Map, if I understand correctly.