Month: 2017-12


sylin 00:02:06
How about Wednesdays?
patcon 02:07:25
11pm tues ET?
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patcon 02:07:27
also, hello!
patcon 02:09:42
is this the main entry point for technical people interested in holopolis btw? https://github.com/PDIS/holopolis



holopolis - web:

dzn 02:19:14
Tuesday, Wed, both are fine with me
✅ 2
sylin 10:00:46
yes. and most scrips are for running in High Fidelity

11pm tues ET?

chingchen 11:05:48
have 3 conference calls on Wednesday noon(12pm-3). one monthly team meeting on Wednesday morning. Monday, Tuesday works for me.
patcon 11:34:34
Yay! Thx @sylin! I have access to a great vr rig at hacklab.to, so going to try to make myself useful at some point :)
sylin 11:36:03
super excited to see you here!
nucell 14:12:28
@david has joined the channel
itsmisscs 23:49:32
VR rig is almost set up at Orbital! We’ll be able to checkout the space in hifi soon
itsmisscs 23:58:38
Sweet! so it’s gonna be up and running. are there any docs/write-ups on how we start tapping into your hifi server? We can finally try out what y’all have been jamming on


patcon 02:29:01
is happy to contribute to docs if ppl just want to drop advice in here
patcon 02:29:14
(oh man, i love you, boogie-penguin )
sylin 15:07:54
@patcon if you get an hifi account, I can add you to our server

then you can go ahead enter <HiFi://plurality>
sylin 15:09:17
either through the browser (which should lead you to the download page) or download the Interface directly
sylin 15:10:29
My mac air from 2015 can run Interface, but for editing/implementation, a VR-rady computer is recommended
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sylin 15:22:34
Quick overview by Audrey on scripting in High Fidelity


10/30 VR Scripting Tutorial

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sylin 15:46:17

is happy to contribute to docs if ppl just want to drop advice in here


patcon 01:07:41
Omg yay!
patcon 08:10:54
forgot to report here, but for anyone interested, some discussion in #intl about attending Rightcons 2018 in Toronto in May: https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C084CU74J/p1512115608000254

some ppl already attending from tw, it seems :slightly_smiling_face:

A little last minute, but RightsCon 2018 is happening in mid may, and proposals due by end of day Dec 4...! But the topics all seem very aligned with g0v projects and topics that have already being tackled by community :) <https://www.rightscon.org/submission-guidelines/>


patcon 01:37:59
from here: https://talk.pdis.nat.gov.tw/t/background-of-holopolis/3956

> *Our team* consists of developers, designers and researchers who work together and share ideas and prototypes for reinventing democracy.

I suspect an interested newcomer might be wondering "who is this team"? Is there one or more places where we can direct people (or aggregate from) to help them understand that better? (I recognize that affiliations are loose :slightly_smiling_face: )

- this chat room member list
- github committers to our 2 repos
- participants in github issues
- other places?

PDIS 公開討論區

專案起源 / Background of Holopolis

專案起源 / Background Taiwan has been experimenting with bringing citizens and government together in a civic deliberation process for crafting digital legislation. Our process, vTaiwan, brings people directly into governance and helps lawmakers implement decisions with a greater degree of legitimacy. We see our project as an adaptable and reproducible prototype for future democracy. It is our priority to support all people in participating fully and freely. We have utilized the power of web and...

patcon 07:12:59
ok, so i'm trying to orient with development process so that I can help write orientation docs -- quick question: does the team spend significant amounts of time engaging with the hifi dev community in their own channels? if so, which ones? They have quite the system, incl their own bug trackers and micro-contract system, and chat channels, so I'm curious how important it is to understand :slightly_smiling_face:
patcon 12:18:56
i'm working my way through the holopolis and high fidelity docs and forums, and a couple thoughts so far:
patcon 12:24:56
1. would making participation in polis conversations (ie. reflective phase of ORID) more tactile and kinesthetic fall within the holopolis mandate, perhaps as a related sub-project?

I am recently thinking about how to allow a room of people who are convened to better understand the "fault lines" amongst themselves, prior to engaging in conversation and attempts to move forward. I am imagining an early exercise in the convening (perhaps aided by prior step of establishing digital identities via an app or a lanyard with RFIDs or some such support tech). There would then be 3 spots along edges of room (equally spaced apart), labelled as Agree/Disagree/Pass. A wall projector shows statements, and people move as they feel. They pass people regularly, and see who tends to be in their group, and who doesn't. Perhaps the "Pass" station has a place where folks can pause and enter improved statements. The polis visualization projected on a wall updates and moves around as people go about the exercise. The results could then be a grounding for later discussion, perhaps involving colored identifiers, so people have clarity on which tribe they're interacting with. And the facilitators could intentionally bring certain opinion groups together for some parts of discussion, but separate them for others -- perhaps even playing with dynamics in novel ways, like introducing a single of one group into a mob of others, but with all parties knowing that this person represents a different view, and so trying to integrate their perspective, but without feeling the "threat" of their numbers that sometimes might come into play.
patcon 12:26:47
is helping convene a consultation on Tuesday about Google developing a chunk of downtown Toronto, and this would be really rad for that, but I don't think there's time :)
patcon 12:27:25
also related to above, i feel very inspired by some folks who @itsmisscs and @darshana introduced @lizbarry and I to -- Complex Movements: https://vimeo.com/233329636


Eyeo 2017 - Complex Movements: Invincible-ill Weaver, L05, Sage Crump &amp; Wesley Taylor

Complex Movements at Eyeo 2017 | Hyper Local High Tech | (Complex Movements: Invincible-ill Weaver, L05, Sage Crump & Wesley Taylor) Complex Movements shares insights from their project Beware of the Dandelions which is a mobile art installation that functions as a multimedia performance, a community organizing process, and oral history video archive. The piece intersects disciplines including: community organizing, design, hip-hop and electronic music, architecture, and theater. Complex Movements engages communities to expand their strategies for organizing around local and trans-local social justice issues. @cmplxmvmnts @eyeofestival

patcon 12:29:23
they have a immersive experience that involves narrative and interaction from tracking participant movements within their specially-designed staging enclosure. It seems that perhaps there could be shared resources between something as described above, and the amazing work that they're doing
patcon 12:30:41
and lastly:

2. I've been thinking on other ways that the final pol.is artifact -- the 2d visualization, could be made more engaging and explorable. I know that you're all thinking deeply on that too
patcon 12:31:56
i got think about how the opinion groups could be rendered, conveying the right vibe -- distinct and separated, but part of a coherent community
patcon 12:32:35
i've always had a love for cul-de-sacs in my hometown. the folks who lived on them always seemed to be extremely close to one another. it's a very intimate arrangement of homes:

patcon 12:34:07
i was wondering whether opinion groups could procedurally generate a cul-de-sac that people could explore after the fact. perhaps participants could spend time thinking about which objects represented the views that were distinct about their opinion group, and decorate their "home" with objects that could be explored and linked to help "visitors" understand where they are coming from
patcon 12:36:47
and further, if we want to expose sub-clusters within the statistical clusters of the opinion groups, that might relate nicely to the rooms in the home (though I'm not sure that would work as nicely... i don't understand the hierarchical clustering algo that well)
patcon 13:45:26



Improving collaboration and team effectiveness with innovative open-source measurement and feedback tools.   In the Rhythm project, we partner with companies and educational institutions to measure and augment human interaction in real time, leading to better group decision-making, trust, and engage

sylin 14:49:56
Cool, our service designer Fang-Jui will prob submit a workshop to Rightcons 🖖🏽

forgot to report here, but for anyone interested, some discussion in <#C084CU74J|intl> about attending Rightcons 2018 in Toronto in May: <https://g0v-tw.slack.com/archives/C084CU74J/p1512115608000254> some ppl already attending from tw, it seems :slightly_smiling_face:



sylin 10:42:04
added a link at “team”

from here: <https://talk.pdis.nat.gov.tw/t/background-of-holopolis/3956> &gt; *Our team* consists of developers, designers and researchers who work together and share ideas and prototypes for reinventing democracy. I suspect an interested newcomer might be wondering "who is this team"? Is there one or more places where we can direct people (or aggregate from) to help them understand that better? (I recognize that affiliations are loose :slightly_smiling_face: ) - this chat room member list - github committers to our 2 repos - participants in github issues - other places?

sylin 10:42:27
@patcon do you have edit permission to our discourse?
I don't 😊
@patcon create an account https://talk.pdis.nat.gov.tw/ 🙂
oh wait…you are there already
welcome to the admin group 🎉
yay! thanks @sylin! with great power comes great responsa-bumblebee 🐝 (or something like that)
sylin 11:13:20
Beautiful. I feel myself too naive most of the time 🙂

PDIS 公開討論區

Martijn de Waal

[image] Martijn is a writer and researcher focusing on the relation between digital media and urban culture. He gives lecture of Play and Civic Media at the Amsterdam University. He also coined the term "Urban Media" in his book "The City as Interface". Urban Media: a collective term describes media that influence the experience of a physical location Text messages that allows us to make last minutes changes of meet-ups; navigation systems that helps us to find the best route; social medi...

sylin 17:21:36
@chingchen 我們想把之前在馬德里 present 的三個 project 各寫一篇 write-up, 比如說 剛剛我寫了這篇 https://talk.pdis.nat.gov.tw/t/holopolis-mr/5096, 想問你有沒有想要寫 bot 的 ---> https://talk.pdis.nat.gov.tw/t/holopolis-bot/5095 (中英都可)
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patcon 14:25:25
@sylin did anyone from holopolis have time to submit a RightsCon session proposal? 😁
sylin 14:25:41
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sylin 14:25:52
should we ?
patcon 14:26:02
Can't make time for everything :)
sylin 14:26:07
yep 🙂
patcon 14:26:22
Heh deadline was last night, unfortunately, so was a bit of a hustle in #intl
sylin 14:26:26
PDIS submitted a service design workshop
patcon 14:26:45
Yay! Tagalong?
sylin 14:27:16
Fang-Jui and
sylin 14:27:18
patcon 14:27:32
patcon 14:28:09
I will see if I can drum up holopolis interest/contributors in the meantime over here ;)
sylin 14:28:37
sylin 14:28:55
let us know
👌 1
patcon 14:29:01
OK, tis late, but have a wonderful ~night~ day!
sylin 14:29:21


patcon 09:35:44
@sylin re: https://talk.pdis.nat.gov.tw/t/started-trello-board/4063/5?u=patcon

sorry, do you mean that I can make _new_ public boards, or that the existing private boards can be made public?? def don't want to overstep here :slightly_smiling_face:

PDIS 公開討論區

started trello board

Welcome to the :hole: Feel free to do whatever, add more members or make the Trello board public.

patcon 09:38:58
and re: https://talk.pdis.nat.gov.tw/t/contributors/5112?u=patcon

would others be intersted in co-maintaining a graph like this if I created it? (it would be based on timezones at first, but could be updated if we discover otherwise through convo):

PDIS 公開討論區


Members in Slack #holopolis channel naxus, sylin, chingchen, itsmisscs, dzn, herman_wu, patcon, markdai, au, colinmegill, billy3321, ralflin, Avross, fang, isacl, kjwu, leo424y, nucell, Peterlee, rachaello, ryoshirai, yasuakikakehi, 許舜博 Github committers XanxusX, shuyanglin, targeeey


g0v-tw#general-en Slack channel

Mapping the English-speaking g0v community.

sylin 09:42:19
@patcon Since you are admin, I would say you can do what you think make sense. 🙂 just for the record, I think it’s okay to have trello board public.

<@U2PUXG69E> re: <https://talk.pdis.nat.gov.tw/t/started-trello-board/4063/5?u=patcon> sorry, do you mean that I can make _new_ public boards, or that the existing private boards can be made public?? def don't want to overstep here :slightly_smiling_face:

patcon 10:06:02
heh, thank you thank you! i totally appreciate the trust, but i usually will opt for a sense of consensus or clarity to be on the safe side...!

for example, when i look up and see the little Trello button saying "Team Visible", I sometimes imagine it as a social contract -- "ok, now i'm speaking in a small room of people, as opposed to on broadcast radio" -- and speak accordingly. I wouldn't want to change that on folks without confirming 🙂 (Trello auto-exposes public boards in Google results afaict)
patcon 10:11:27
ah, just joined this board: https://trello.com/b/OdEAyPsI/high-fidelity

@sylin seems i need to be *board admin* (as opposed to "team admin") before I can publicize, if you could help me with that!
@naxus actually, seems that you are the only board admin, so this would need your help 🙌
@patcon done!
you da best!
patcon 10:16:42
fyi, I'd been working on my own board for "onboarding", so I moved it over -- it's still a work-in-progress (WIP), but let me know if you have any thoughts: https://trello.com/b/3akBP3jg/holopolis-onboarding


[WIP] Holopolis Onboarding

Trello is the visual collaboration platform that gives teams perspective on projects. Use Trello to collaborate, communicate and coordinate on all of your projects.

patcon 10:16:55
(or if it tramples on the territory of some other docs!)
This is awesome!
patcon 10:48:14
Anyone have a translation for this?
> Brainstorm 在 HiFi 裡面的環境要長怎樣

Is it: "Brainstorm inside the HiFi environment"?
patcon 10:49:16
> 先把基本的場景做出來

"Make a basic scene"?
“make a draft environment/scene first”
sylin 11:42:06
haha, these two are done
sylin 11:42:32
quote from you in metapolis, “You are all making my life infinitely better and more exciting by bringing all this magic into existence!”
😊 1
sylin 11:43:23
“make a draft environment/scene first”

&gt; 先把基本的場景做出來 "Make a basic scene"?


patcon 06:19:51
Omg I just used HiFi for the first time with a Vive and it was amaaaaaazing!
i can’t wait to do this next week at the vr station at orbital!
as soon as i came in, this woman named... oh no! i forget her name! -- anyhow, she was so helpful and got me set up on my controller and change some settings and it made the place feel super-friendly!
LETS HANG OUT IN VR THIS IS GOING TO BE GREAT. keep me posted when you're thinking about doing it!
I have been looking for people to hangout in vr since september :))))))))))))
Haha wooooo! I'm only around the gear for another week, then on holidays and not back in Toronto till mid January
patcon 06:20:32
Has anyone been talking about using hifi to simulate the experience of the vtaiwan process or variations of it?
patcon 06:23:29
I've been thinking on an in-person experience for a reflective phase that could be more tactile and mobile, basically having participants wear a Rhythm badge (http://www.rhythm.mit.edu/rhythm-badges] and move around a physical space to indicate agreement or not, and seeing on a projected surface the polis conversation as it evolves
patcon 06:24:46
I'd love to simulate the experiece of a participant, starting from the walk downstairs into a church basement, to maybe build buy-in before building anything real :)

Might this be a decent holopolis project?
dig the 🕳️ , patcon
patcon 17:11:14
we can try after renaming KMT to something else lol
Haha yeah, I've been reading their stuff and visiting around, and I feel they've been doing their process waaaaay too much in high ivory towers -- closed source software, no internet-based peer production communities working on the process development itself, etc etc.

It totally doesn't surprise me that they've been toiling for almost 20 years on this amazing system with no big bang moment...!

I'm sure we'd tune lots of things if it was worth using!


patcon 14:19:23
<!here> i know the time changed, but any chance anyone wants to do a meeting in 40 minutes? I am so set up for VR right now!
😂 1


sylin 23:37:50
@naxus let’s steal oculus or vive from au’s table to SIL/TAF ?
1 😎 1 ✅ 1


itsmisscs 04:12:00
got to play with vive today. next up, trying out holopolis!
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itsmisscs 04:12:23
looks like i’ll be around this week so maybe i can give it a shot at orbital
patcon 05:12:25
Do we have a server running, btw? I think a"domain" its called?
itsmisscs 06:56:38
yes, there is one


patcon 00:26:48
Cool! Know the name offhand?
itsmisscs 02:33:29
@sylin ^^
sylin 02:40:17
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patcon 03:45:28
OK, seems that in order to visit "plurality", we need to compile our client instead of using the steam version? Is that expected? Are we using bleeding edge features? Might we want a server that's more visitable more easily by normals, even this early on?

I can prob sort out compiling from master, but the VR station is 1) windows, for which I don't have much experience, and 2) not really mine, so I hope not to install too much stuff :)
sylin 08:04:45
Oh I think it’s server version dismatch
sylin 08:05:14
We haven’t update to the latest one yet
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hychen 16:11:57
@hychen has joined the channel
pm5 16:12:12
@pm5 has joined the channel
sylin 17:19:51
@chingchen Hychen 正在進行另一個處理議題討論的專案,對妳的 bot 有興趣, 聽起來他們可能會進一步針對 user 傳回的 reply 做 ORID labeling,也就是針對回覆做事實、感受、想法、決定四個標記。可能會想跟你們學習的事情是… 日後接你們的 api 吧 (?!)
跟 vTaiwan 類似, 但我們主要是處理科技政策,然後是先做一個能對 PDF, 網頁做 crowdsourcing labeling 的工具。

sylin 17:20:16
@hychen 看你要不要補充一下,我們也可以約個時間 concall
patcon 17:43:33
@sylin may I ask how the HiFi server is provisioned and updated? Is it done manually, or might there be a scripted deploy process? Either way, is it documented? And who has access to server SSH to ask questions of?

Thanks so much! Just curious to know whether I can participate in helping to upgrade :)
sylin 19:03:29
allow me to forward to 👉🏽 @au and @naxus
au 21:41:43
it is a GCE server running in ChangHwa, Taiwan. at the moment it’s done manually but I can see a better scripted deployment as possibility. naxus and me have access.
patcon 23:25:19
@au Cool. Thanks! I work with Chef configuration management tool, so if helpful, i could prototype a package ("cookbook" in chef parlance) to manage the server. Or I could learn whatever tool GCE prefers to use [EDIT: oh! google cloud engine. nevermind :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: ]

Pls let me know :slightly_smiling_face:


au 11:33:07
@patcon I’ve just upgraded the server.
Thank you so much! I'll be back in Toronto with access to VR gear in mid-January! Yeow!
💯 2
patcon 13:20:40
Thank you so much! I'll be back in Toronto with access to VR gear in mid-January! Yeow!


patcon 11:12:37
just came across an NYC Media Lab program, and thought there might be some students in NYC who could be interested in using holopolis as a starting point for one of these (or future) VR/AR prototyping projects: http://nycmedialab.org/prototyping-projects/

NYC Media Lab

Prototyping Projects

Founded in 2010, NYC Media Lab is dedicated to driving innovation and ultimately job growth in media and technology by facilitating collaboration between the City’s universities and its companies.


itsmisscs 01:17:01

The Verge

Magic Leap finally unveils augmented reality goggles, says it’s shipping next year

After more than three years, Magic Leap has unveiled what it describes as a "creator edition" of its augmented reality system. The Magic Leap One consists of a pair of oversized cyberpunk-y...

🤓 1


sylin 21:23:22
Shall we have holopolis meeting in vr this friday?
I'm still away from my vr gear until mid-january, but I'd still love to try to join somehow! What time?
++ same. i do love this idea! we finally have a VR setup in nyc 🙌🏾
Gosh! If we can do this on a regular basis would be SUPER cool.
but yeah.. I’m on the road and no access to VR gear
Bump. Timing? I recall the posted time not being correct anymore :)



itsmisscs 08:23:53
How to breathe in VR https://vimeo.com/233011474


Eyeo 2017 Ignite! - Mariya Mishurenko

Ignite Talks at Eyeo 2017 Mariya Mishurenko "How to Breathe in VR" We joined creative forces with researcher, activist and breathing teacher hannes bend and Miami-Dade University to make a VR experience with biofeedback about rising sea levels. The main input for the interaction was supposed to be the breathing of the user. We tested a pile of sensors (including a real radar!) and overcame tough challenges. We came to some important conclusions that can save the creative professionals ton of time and money if they ever decide to use breathing sensors for creative purposes. @marmishurenko @eyeofestival

dzn 08:58:17
forgot about it! found it while documenting our other talks.
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patcon 04:14:51
Bump. Timing? I recall the posted time not being correct anymore :)
ky 12:18:25
@lisa has joined the channel